The Quarterback Market
Merry Christmas, and Happiest of Holidays to all the Twelves out there and your families. Please be safe, especially those of you who are traveling.
After yesterday's loss, as frustrated as I am with our QB situation, in my saner moments I recognize that QB upgrades--like better jobs--are extremely hard to come by. Ultimately, long-term upgrades are almost always "grown" through the draft rather than acquired in free agency or via trade. Every 12 knows this. We've been over it a thousand times.
Nevertheless, Schneider and Carroll will have opportunities to upgrade the position this off-season. But, finding a sufficient upgrade to justify the inevitable disruption that goes with changing QBs--at a price that doesn't fundamentally weaken the team--is among the most difficult moves in all of pro sports. So, self-righteously "demanding" a QB change, as I've heard from some fans, is about as pointless as a five year old's tantrum. Schneider and Carroll will be window shopping, as they have never so much as uttered a phrase publicly that implies long-term commitment to Jackson. But the fairly heavy odds are on Tarvaris Jackson returning as the starter in 2012. I'm at an uneasy peace with this. I look at the 49ers and see the same basic game plan at work. The better the team around him, the less Alex Smith must do. He was essentially one play better than Jackson yesterday. The near-perfect 41-yard sideline throw to Crabtree was the difference. So, continuing to improve the team around Jackson seems the most likely course of action.
Still Schneider will prepare to strike at an unexpected opportunities. QBs move every off-season, and this will be no different. So, who might strike Seattle's fancy? In order to avoid complete rosterbation here, I restrict my focus to pro players who are free agents or who have been recently rumored to be available. I'll separate them out by how much of an upgrade I perceive them to be after the jump.
Obviously, this is super preliminary. Caveats abound. This is not an exhaustive list of every potentially available QB. We don't know who will re-sign with their current team, who will be injured in week 17 or in the playoffs, who might declare for this draft with Barkley going back, yadda, yadda. It is worth noting that Seattle will almost certainly be in the market for at least a backup QB as Charlie Whitehurst will likely move on.
Huge Upgrades -- The QBs in this category become options if the front office shifts into "win now" mode. I see the odds of such a shift as quite low, given the potential cost in cap space and/or trade assets. But you never know.
1. Peyton Manning (Indianapolis) -- We all know the situation in Indianapolis. With the Colts in the driver's seat to select Andrew Luck, Manning may come available. He has a significant roster bonus due in February, so that situation could get very messy soon. Given injury and age, I see Manning as a poor gamble for Seattle at this stage (and unlikely to be interested anyway). Still, Schneider would not be doing his job if he didn't investigate the possibility.
2. Kyle Orton (Kansas City) -- Although obviously not in the same category as Manning, Orton is a clearly competent (sometimes very good) QB. He is a free agent this off-season. Kansas City is currently committed to Matt Cassell, who has struggled. Also, the Miami Dolphins attempted to acquire Orton via trade but the asking price was evidently too high. So I suspect there will be a decent market for him. He won't come cheap.
Moderate Upgrade -- This category includes youngish QBs who have been replaced as starters on other teams. The front office would essentially be betting that they are better versions of Tarvaris Jackson.
1. Jason Campbell (Oakland) -- He became the odd man out once Oakland acquired Carson Palmer. He is a free agent, and a better version of Tarvaris Jackson. Given his connection to Tom Cable there may be a fit. He is intriguing, but is he enough of an upgrade to warrant the inevitable step back that accompanies a QB change? He's also coming off a broken collarbone; a simple injury, but one that can recur frequently.
2. Matt Cassell (Kansas City) -- He wasn't playing well before he was injured. If KC decides to hire Romeo Crennell to coach the team he has made it clear he prefers Orton. Frankly, I am not sure how much of an upgrade Cassel represents even if he comes available.
3. Chad Henne (Miami) -- Henne is another QB who was playing poorly prior to injury. Even if Miami strikes out in a bid to draft a QB early it is unlikely that Henne will return. So, he'd be coming off a shoulder injury and replacement by Matt Moore. I doubt Henne is an upgrade over Jackson, but he will likely be looking for a deal as a backup.
Mild Upgrade/QB of the Future -- This category includes young QBs without significant starting experience. With the possible exception of Matt Flynn, these are players Schneider might bring in to compete with Jackson without promise of a starting role.
1. Matt Flynn (Green Bay) -- He is a former seventh round pick out of LSU, and current Green Bay backup. He is a free agent this off-season, and some speculate that Seattle is a likely destination. Although the comparisons to Matt Hasselbeck are obvious they are also surface comparisons. Hass was a far more accomplished college passer than Flynn. Although acquiring Flynn would make sense, he's not a guaranteed upgrade by any stretch.
2. Brian Hoyer (New England) -- Currently serving as Tom Brady's understudy, Hoyer is a restricted free agent this off-season. Though considered a quality backup, much like with Flynn it is unclear how much he benefits from the halo that comes with being in a good organization behind an amazing starter.
3. Chase Daniel (New Orleans) -- Ditto, except replace Aaron Rodgers/Tom Brady with Drew Brees. Daniel was an accomplished college passer in a spread offense who has played well in the pre-season. Like Hoyer, he is a restricted free agent very likely to return to his original club.
4. Dennis Dixon (Pittsburgh) -- Unlike Hoyer and Daniel, Dixon is a free agent. I always liked him and suspect he'd be willing to come in a backup role for a chance to compete.
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I like your analysis, I think it's spot on on a lot of those guys, but I'm not sure anyone on that list outside of Peyton Manning is a clear upgrade to Tjack, let alone a significant one.
Also, you’re missing a “Throw boatloads of cash to Drew Brees in free agency” option. A boy can dream, right?
Good catch
He is one person I thought of immediately, and he is a free agent. For some reason I thought Tampa had signed him to a multi-year deal last season. Tampa would be dumb to let him walk with Freeman having regressed.
Evidently Johnson partially separated his shoulder in the game vs. Tampa.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
Grrr... Charlotte
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
They played the Bobcats in an NFL vs. NBA scrimmage
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
by SSreporters on Dec 26, 2011 11:27 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, I'd have to watch his appearances this year before I made much more of it, but I've liked him for a while.
And yeah, he’ll be a FA. Wonder if he’ll go to San Fran to be with Harbaugh.
There's just no way I can justify Peyton Manning in the same sentence
Unless that sentence is about ugly white guys. Point is, Orton couldn’t hold a job over Tim Tebow, yet he’s considered a huge upgrade over TJack? I disagree.
by sonse7en on Dec 25, 2011 2:26 PM PST via mobile reply actions
*same sentence as Kyle Orton
Plus, I’m not sure anyone in the mild upgrade section is actually an upgrade at all outside of Matt Flynn. Does an unknown value automatically win out over a known one?
by sonse7en on Dec 25, 2011 2:29 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
The categories are not meant to be precise descriptors
This season may be Jackson’s first at 7 YPA or better, depending on how he plays vs. Arizona, and it’s definitely his best. Orton has had multiple better seasons. I’m not advocating Orton per se, but would you at least concede that Orton is an upgrade?
The point of the mild upgrade/QBOTF section is to be inclusive of backups with few starts, but who have developed reputations as potential starters. Obviously, no one is sure that they will develop. They may all turn out to be Charlie Whitehurst.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
Without being reactionary to the last few weeks for both guys
I can’t say definitively. Orton didn’t succeed with that Denver O-line, running game, and defense. Orton is probably better and has higher upside, but he’s going to get paid this offseason and I don’t think the gap is that big between the two. Given your available options with limited rosterbation, I think unless you can somehow get Manning, everyone else is just competition, but by no means an instant upgrade. I really have trust in PC/JS though. I’ve breathed plenty of sighs of relief after they passed over the Clausens and Colt McCoys of the world even with immense pressure to get a QB.
by sonse7en on Dec 25, 2011 4:12 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Actually, I basically agree with this point
The market for QBs doesn’t bowl you over does it?
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
I could
While Peyton is obviously a much better quarterback than Kyle Orton, he comes with unresolved injury questions that aren’t dogging Orton. Orton’s always been healthy.
Peyton’s a much higher upside play, obviously, but there’s a much higher risk that he never takes a snap in the NFL again.
Isn't Dennis Dixon just a polished Josh Portis?
Rough polish, but polished none the less.
they took turns pissing into the bitch's ocular cavities.
This way to the cafeteria!
Dennis Dixon is a RB who plays QB.
Sonicsgate: A movie about how the Sonics were stolen from Seattle.
I am starting to think that we will be going after an Austin Davis type in the third and thats it
At most a veteran backup, maybe even CW if he is at league minimum, but letting things compete out from there and see where we end up after another year. I honestly think that trading the farm to move up or sitting on a second to third round project are the only really viable options. None of those free agents do much for me besides maybe Cambell on the cheap.
they took turns pissing into the bitch's ocular cavities.
This way to the cafeteria!
Part of the point of this post is for people saying "anybody but TJax" to see what "anybody" looks like
It’s not super appetizing. I’d love to upgrade from TJax but the market (which will obviously change with time) doesn’t leave me hopeful.
As for Dixon, think of him as a potential replacement for Whitehurst who might be able to challenge TJax.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
by dcrockett17 on Dec 25, 2011 4:06 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I think the concept behind the post was a good one. I just disagree with the quality of the guys you listed.
For better or worse, Tavaris knows the system. That gives him an automatic lead in a race with any equal competitor. All those listed are equal competitors, including Orton (how he gets “significant upgrade” status is WAY beyond me.)
HUGE UPGRADE, MODERATE UPGRADE and MILD UPGRADE/QBOTF Types should have been listed like this:
The Dream Upgrade: Peyton
Guys Who Might be Able to Challenge Tavaris Based on Past Performance
Guys Who Might be Able to Challenge Tavaris Based on Future Potential.
Those are the only viable categories. Anything that presumes that any of these guys are any better than Tavaris begs the question of why they’ve been cast off at least once from prior teams, many of which are still searching for satisfactory QB play.
"Now I'm tired of this s---. I'm sick and f------ tired of an 8-10 record. I'm f------ tired of losing to Purdue. I'm not here to f--- around this week. Now you may be, but I'm not." -- Bobby Knight, circa 1992
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 30, 2011 3:06 PM PST up reply actions
Which puts him right on par with the rest of them, which is average at best.
I just don’t see a Jim Plunkett in that list of players to pull off the scrap heap and have lead you like an all-pro. At least not where they deserve the title of “Moderate” or “Mild” upgrades. This “upgrade” is all based on hypothetical whateverness.
"Now I'm tired of this s---. I'm sick and f------ tired of an 8-10 record. I'm f------ tired of losing to Purdue. I'm not here to f--- around this week. Now you may be, but I'm not." -- Bobby Knight, circa 1992
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 31, 2011 2:12 AM PST up reply actions
Well Orton's worst year has been better than every full season Jackson has played in terms of ANY/A.
With the exception of Orton’s rookie season. He’s posted similar completion% with far better TD/INT ratios throughout his career. I’m not an Orton fan in the least but I’d be surprised if he couldn’t win the starting position away from Tarvaris if given a fair shot and an entire training camp.
An Austin Davis type? Yes please.
Good size, decent arm. Smart. Leadership qualities. Maybe I’m trying to talk myself into him though, his Bowl game was kinda meh for awhile before getting better.
by sideshow bob on Dec 26, 2011 9:23 PM PST up reply actions
All options considered...
I’m all for a Tjack led team next season. He is definitely flawed in some areas, though he seems improved over seasons past. I think a full offseason to develop a rapport with some of these young receivers could make a huge difference. last game he was throwing to a guy deemed not ready for signicant playing time until injuries hit, a 3rd year guy coming off a gruesome leg break, two UDFA’s, and Obo. Baldwin is awesome but but i wouldnt say polished. Mix in the fact he was unable to practice with any of these guys for a month or two in the middle of season. We’ve seen what his rapport with Sidney can do, i’d like to see him develop some chemistry with the young guys too. I’m not trying to be the poster boy for Tjack excuses but i think this is the most logical option until the FO gets their shot at a QBOTF in the draft.
by Defective on Dec 25, 2011 5:34 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
I agree this list is underwhelming, but...
I can’t see this team getting anywhere with Tjack. I don’t see him suddenly developing pocket presence. Can we get a little better next year with him? maybe if we don’t lose anything else and only improve our other areas, but I think we’ve GOT to get a good development project that can replace Tjack year after or at least push him as the season proceeds. The QB market isn’t suddenly going to improve a season after this, and hopefully we don’t get worse, improving our draft position. We’ve got to find a way to at least look at other options. Tjack is better than nothing, but I don’t see a lot of these flyers in the list as worse than Tjack, just maybe not better. I think it might be worth taking this chance this offseason.
So if you can't develop pocket presence, what do you do?
Either find a new QB or create a better pocket.
Which is easier?
"Now I'm tired of this s---. I'm sick and f------ tired of an 8-10 record. I'm f------ tired of losing to Purdue. I'm not here to f--- around this week. Now you may be, but I'm not." -- Bobby Knight, circa 1992
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 30, 2011 3:07 PM PST up reply actions
I would guess based on discussions we've had in the past that you think it's easier to create a better pocket.
But if you look at what Seattle has invested in their line, two firsts a second and a third round pick, it’s probably not much less than what Seattle would need to trade up and get a big time QB prospect.
Who may or may not be worthy of the pick and could be a bust.
That being said, I am not against trading up. I think the foundation is there to take a grab at a legitimate high ceiling evaluated QBOTF. My guess for our 1st rounder this year is LB or WR, with QB a possibility that seems like it will force either a trade up or a trade down in order to happen.
I wanted to build the line before the QB, and I think we’ve done that (troubling injury issues aside.) We’re young across the board, and have finally created an atmosphere with some depth if not what I’d like or consider to be the same level of a championship contender. So I don’t think it is impossible to consider this a legitimate year to trade up… if you find the right QB to reach for of course.
"Now I'm tired of this s---. I'm sick and f------ tired of an 8-10 record. I'm f------ tired of losing to Purdue. I'm not here to f--- around this week. Now you may be, but I'm not." -- Bobby Knight, circa 1992
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 31, 2011 2:15 AM PST up reply actions
I don't see anybody but Tavaris starting next year and with a full off-season I'm sure he'll improve some.
But it will be like having a job at McDonalds and being Promoted to cashier. Great. Sell the farm & trade up life is short.
Cashiers don't get grease burns.
Those suck.
I really don't see anything to suggest Jackson can "improve"
How many more years does he need? He is inconsistent and always has been. The Vikes brought in Favre because the one time Jackson went to the playoffs he was pick 6’d towards a double-digit defeat. Minnesota realized they could not succeed with the talent they had everywhere else and have a QB that mediocre.
It would take a 2000 Baltimore Ravens type of team for Seattle to even make the playoffs with Tarvaris Jackson. And even that 2000 Ravens offense was so terrible in the passing game that they went 5 straight games without a TD and essentially cost them the division.
I’d rather bite the bullet and get a QB within the first 2-3 rounds and let him develop and throw him right into game action. If the talent we have currently can get us within two games of a playoff spot, then they need improved play at QB.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
I should of said his game will improve, a little, by more time working with the receivers .
As for himself as a quarterback, agreed he’s topped out.
I think this is worth a deeper look. Not to argue with you, but I just got curious. Here's some raw data (Like Josh Portis raw!) I'm pulling off of a notepad document I threw together.
FIRST 8 YARDS: 1559
FIRST 8 ATT: 227
FIRST 8 YPA: 6.86
FIRST 8 ANY/A:5.61
LAST 7 YARDS 1313
LAST 7 ATT: 188
LAST 7 YPA: 6.98
LAST 7 ANY/A: 6.95
FIRST 8 D’s (DVOA PASS D)
-2.0 (SF)
-3.8 (PIT)
+10.4 (ARI)
+3.0 (ATL)
+18.5 (NYG)
+13.6 (CIN)
FIRST 8 TOTAL PASS D DVOA: +39.7
LAST 7 D’s: (DVOA Pass D)
-18.6 (BAL)
+7.1 (STL)
+0.5 (WAS)
+2.1 (PHI)
+7.1 (STL)
-2.5 (CHI)
-2.0 (SF)
LAST 7 TOTAL PASS D DVOA: -6.3
*CAVEATS: Defenses aren’t static. (For example the badass Ravens D may have had a reason for not being so badass that given week.). The running game has been VERY different in the second half. I’m sure there’s more you guys will point out, but someone take those numbers and run with them. On the surface, it looks like Tjack has been ~23% more effective the second half regardless of facing significantly better defenses.
Oh boy, that almost made me late for a Christmas party! Happy holidays, all.
by SgtSasquatch on Dec 25, 2011 8:32 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Most of Jackson's best performances have come when the running game has been working
vs. PHI, vs. STL, @ NYG, vs. BAL.
Atlanta is the only game where he’s played well almost start to finish without a competent rushing attack.
And that’s why I don’t like the Bevell/Jackson packaged deal. That’s exactly how the Vikings offense fails — including under Favre — and it’s how the Seahawks offense tends to fail.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
So you mean if Seattle's explicitly run-first offense isn't working, Jackson isn't an elite QB that can always come in and save it?
We knew that already. But you think a 2nd or 3rd round project QB will? That’s pretty absurd, honestly. If they draft a guy in the 2nd or 3rd round this year, they definitely won’t be throwing him straight into game action, because that will be helpful to no parties involved, except for the opposing teams turnover differential.
Look, we get that you hate Tarvaris. But acting like he’s complete trash and that a 2nd or 3rd round project rookie would be an upgrade over him is just choosing to be ignorant. SgtSasquatch gave you explicit statistical evidence that,
On the surface, it looks like Tjack has been ~23% more effective the second half regardless of facing significantly better defenses.You can’t just blow that off as “Oh that’s just cuz most of his best performances have come when the run game is working.” Of course, because he’s not Aaron Rodgers, or Drew Brees, or Tom Brady, or any other elite QB who transcends the scheme. He can experience legitimate success in this specific scheme, and that’s the best we can manage right now, in the absence of a true franchise QB.
Tarvaris is the very definition of average. He has a couple of elite qualities. On many throws, he demonstrates a cannon capable of zipping throws into tight spaces, and he throws a legitimately elite deep ball. He’s also a poor decision-maker under pressure and holds the ball too long.
His positives generally cancel out his negatives and leave him as just an average QB who can play at a solidly above-average level at times in Pete Carroll’s offense. Throw in his intangibles, like familiarity with the team, his leadership, his toughness, yadda yadda yadda, and he’s pretty much the perfect stopgap QB for this Seahawks team.
by Matt Erickson on Dec 26, 2011 10:56 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
There's a bit of an issue with multiple end points in Sgt's comment though.
Baltimore’s defense is a huge abnormality and it falls right at the cut off point. What if we shift Baltimore into the first group, how do the numbers change?
First 9 numbers –
Yards – 1773
Yards/Game – 221.62
Attempts – 244
Attempts/Game – 30.5
Yards/Attempt – 7.2
TDs – 6
INTs – 9
AY/A* – 6.09
Opposition’s defensive DVOA – 21.1
*I used AY/A instead of ANY/A because I couldn’t find sack data
Last 6 numbers –
Yards – 1096
Yards/Game – 182.66
Attempts – 168
Attempts/Game – 28
Yards/Attempt – 6.5
TDs – 7
INTS – 3
AY/A – 6.55
Oppositions defensive DVOA – 12.3
The defenses still got better in the second half but Jackson’s numbers don’t show nearly the improvement. His yards are down significantly and his attempts go down a touch too, likely from the increased success in the running game. The only real difference is a decrease in interceptions. That decrease could be do to improvement on Jackson’s part, it could be due to the running game’s success, and I’d also be curious to see if his sacks numbers changed. Whatever the reason it’s an encouraging trend, but maybe not as hopeful a picture as the Sgt’s comment paints it.
Totally, This reiterates the point that dealing with Tjack (and football as a sport in particular) we constantly run into SSS issues.
I just wanted to be sure to state though that I’m not trying to make a point one way or the other and any/all number cutoffs were decided upon based on convenience not trying to cook any of the books or anything.
by SgtSasquatch on Dec 26, 2011 5:22 PM PST up reply actions
what about Brady Quinn.
He’s got legs to scramble if needed and he’s probably more accurate than TJack. Also Pete knows him from his days at USC and i would bet that he would win the starting job over TJack. It would be worth a shot since Brady never really had a chance to “for a real team”. In my opinion he would be the only player i would want brought in for a chance to compete. 6th round pick for him tops. Also i think we should start Josh Portis in this next game. give him a chance to show us something. besides its not gonna hurt us if he looses
Even better Quinn will be a free agent
I agree with you by the way. I just wonder if Quinn has the ability to “lead” and I don’t know if that is justified or not.
Glory Glory
Here's a thought
Cam Newton succeeding so quickly eliminates any hope of Clausen ever making it on that team.
Anyone want to give him a tryout via trade? Whitehurst is a goner so let’s see if we can resurrect someone younger.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
I would. Bad line play and injuries is a reasonable excuse for his poor year.
His attitude, again, is a problem, but there’s no doubt he has great talent – above average arm strength, intangibles, etc. However, his pocket awareness is a bit sketchy – he’s probably as mobile as Peyton Manning, and our line may not be that good enough for such a perk.
PC/JS have looked at him before though (they would’ve taken him if ET wasn’t there), so I think he’s definitely a candidate.
"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff
It would be hard to get used to watching an ugly ass bird like Clausen on the field
He looks so punchable.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
Dennis Johnson and Sam Cassell agree with you.
"Now I'm tired of this s---. I'm sick and f------ tired of an 8-10 record. I'm f------ tired of losing to Purdue. I'm not here to f--- around this week. Now you may be, but I'm not." -- Bobby Knight, circa 1992
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 30, 2011 3:11 PM PST up reply actions
Clausen's a good idea, I think
Never really got a fair shot.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
For purely irrational, non-football related reasons, I'd rather root for a QB without a stupid face I want to punch.
by Benne on Dec 26, 2011 4:41 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Come to think of it, I know exactly where my irrational hate of Clausen comes from.
Tidus, from Final Fantasy X. He looks just like Tidus. I fucking hated Tidus. I do not want Tidus on my favorite team.
Punchable face = good QB?
Some examples: Phillip Rivers, Ben Rothliesberger, Eli Manning
"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff
by EequalsMc2 on Dec 26, 2011 5:16 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Two things I am absolutely opposed to:
1) Peyton Manning in Seattle blues unless you can shave ten years off his age or ‘flashy thing’ me ala Men in Black to make me forget the whole “fused neck” thing.
2) Trading the farm for a high pick. I just don’t believe it’s worth the fistful of picks unless you’re completely out of holes at (nearly) every other position. We’re not burdened with that problem.
I wrote a piece last off-season about going for Orton and I still think he’s a capable, professional QB (and considering some of the clowns starting in the NFL, I know he’ll land somewhere), but Jackson has the locker room, knows the offense, is under (cheap) contract, and has played well enough to alleviate panic. ALWAYS be looking to upgrade this position, but there’s no need to get crazy.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
I don't want to trade the farm either, but if Manning is a FA and the FO does due diligence on
his health and ability to play at his previously elite level, then I’d like to see it if we can do it without handicapping the salary cap space for the next 5 years.
Smashmouth is the new sexy!
T-Jax gets replaced by another aging QB?
That would be sad after his efforts this year, but such is the business of NFL.
I was hot on trading for Orton at the start of the year, however I just don’t see him being a PC/JS guy. He can probably run the 2-minute offense better and certainly has better pocket presence. He is a little lose with the ball and less mobile. Also doesn’t strike me as a leader.
There is no sure thing to bet the farm on, otherwise I would be all for it. I would take Luck but he will be unattainable. Our picks are just not worth as much.
Seattle has a rich and deep history of signing or trading for stars injured and/or past their prime
Franco Harris! Jerry Rice! John Randle! Ken Griffey Jr. redux! Patrick Ewing!
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
by SSreporters on Dec 26, 2011 11:23 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Yes.
March 24, 1976
That’s the main stat I see when I think of Manning; the fucker will be 36.5 at the start of next season. And his performance was dropping over his last few years – still great, but dropping nonetheless.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
Signing Manning implies "WIN NOW!"
Something I really don’t put past Carroll and Schneider to do.
Honestly Manning should go to the Jets, who are probably pissed Sanchez sucks. It would take a hell of a contract restructuring, though.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
by SSreporters on Dec 26, 2011 11:31 AM PST up reply actions
Signing Manning gives Carroll and Co. time to fortify their "Win Forever" by "Winning Now"
Putting Manning in gives the duo at least 1-2 years more time in finding and grooming a potential QBOTF, while also allowing us to be more flexible in filling in our needs and holes. Remember: Win Now does not mean Lose Later.
"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff
EXACTLY.
I’m all for it, if he’s available, cheap in terms of draft currency (obviously not cheap dollar-wise), and willing to come to Seattle.
It’s an IMMEDIATE 2 year Super Bowl window. How anyone could discredit that is beyond me. And yes, we have the ability to develop a legitimate QBOTF behind him. (And perhaps keep a cheap solid 2nd tier starter type exactly like Tavaris as well, in case of injury.)
I just think it’s such a seductive scenario that if we can manage it, we absolutely have to do everything we can to make it happen.
"Now I'm tired of this s---. I'm sick and f------ tired of an 8-10 record. I'm f------ tired of losing to Purdue. I'm not here to f--- around this week. Now you may be, but I'm not." -- Bobby Knight, circa 1992
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 30, 2011 3:17 PM PST up reply actions
There are plenty of legitimate problems
It’s quite a dent in your cap space. Peyton has a neck injury so scary that the next big hit could end his career, his mobility or his life. And while the “let’s get an old stop-gap QB” scenario seems tempting, before you blink you’re suddenly looking at the barrel of two years stuck with an aging, declining QB making it harder to pull the trigger on the QBotF (see: Hasselbeck, Matt).
Formerly knows as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Dec 30, 2011 3:32 PM PST up reply actions
Kevin Mitchell! Rich Aurelia! Grant Winstrom!
I know the list is long… those are three that popped immediately to mind.
"Now I'm tired of this s---. I'm sick and f------ tired of an 8-10 record. I'm f------ tired of losing to Purdue. I'm not here to f--- around this week. Now you may be, but I'm not." -- Bobby Knight, circa 1992
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 30, 2011 3:15 PM PST up reply actions
If Kyle Orton is such a massive upgrade, why can't he hold a job anywhere?
Call me sentimental but I want to go back
And commemorate the place with a historical plaque
by Hmph on Dec 26, 2011 12:33 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
I don't think that's really a fair argument to make.
He would probably still be the guy in Chicago if McDaniels and Cutler could have gotten along in Denver. And he lost his job in Denver because the team was floundering and Golden Boy was waiting in the wings. I don’t think he is a massive upgrade he’s still pretty inconsistent but his bad is better than Tavaris bad and on his best day Orton can be almost great, where as TJax is only above average.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
I'm not taking any cues from the Broncos operation for the last 3-5 years.
They’ve looked like a money fucking a football.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
Or a monkey.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
by Azimeir on Dec 26, 2011 11:21 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Are you trying to draw a comparison or show the difference between them?
by Matt Erickson on Dec 26, 2011 11:25 AM PST up reply actions
Basically saying that Moore could be the next Drew Brees
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
by SSreporters on Dec 26, 2011 11:26 AM PST up reply actions
Same strengths and weaknesses coming out of college. If you read the scouting reports.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
Brees always had a stronger arm, is 2 inches taller and 20 pounds heavier.
His 2 extra inches and 20 lbs more make him a smallish NFL QB. Kellen would look like a 5’5" 115 lb freshman brought up to point guard a varsity basketball team.
"Now I'm tired of this s---. I'm sick and f------ tired of an 8-10 record. I'm f------ tired of losing to Purdue. I'm not here to f--- around this week. Now you may be, but I'm not." -- Bobby Knight, circa 1992
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 30, 2011 3:21 PM PST up reply actions
I don't understand this love
He gets so many fans for his flaws being similar to one QB that figured it out that one time.
I'm not giving him love...
…merely observing how drafting a QB is usually a complete crap shoot. Anyone who says, “QB X will never be a professional quarterback in the NFL,” or, “have success in the NFL,” is full of bull poop.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
by Azimeir on Dec 26, 2011 8:47 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
What about Josh Portis?
Our current third string QB.
.....No.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
by SSreporters on Dec 26, 2011 12:27 PM PST up reply actions
Portis
I like Portis, I think he can be groomed for sure, he’s mobile, decent arm strength, but locks onto one target and poor at progressions, even if groomed is a TJack with mobility… not saying that is bad, I actually like TJack.
Just want to point out that all QBs lock onto receivers early in their career
and they have to learn how not to do it. Sometimes players have enough experience and teaching to learn that in college, some learn it in the pros, some never learn it.
Sure you can identify the ability to not “lock on” in players like Luck. But the thing is, you can’t figure out by watching a QB whether they have potential to devolop the ability to read defenses, make progressions, and look off the secondary.
Smashmouth is the new sexy!
Now that the emotion from the game is over
Fuck you Tarvaris Jackson. You clearly have no idea what you are doing as an NFL quarterback.
I would MUCH rather have CW in there right now. He isn’t better, but he isn’t a meat head. And TJ has had more of a chance to show his skills than CW ever has. I say give him the starter job next year and let TJ play backup.
Glad you left the emotions out of it...
Now tell us how you really feel.
Whitehurst...
…had the opportunity to that every back-up needs to make a QB controversy happen but played like he thinks T-Jack should be the starter.
With a torn T-Jack titty, I’m sure the coaches were hoping Whitehurst would flash something other than a cup of epic fail.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
Play CW, let TJ go get surgery
I read a Pete Carroll quote a while back that said that he didn’t think you could seriously evaluate a quarterback until he has at least 33-35 starts. Anyone know how many TJ has had? It’s gotta be close to that number. Definitely closer than CW. I honestly don’t think PC and JS are big players in the QB market this next year, because we beat some teams we “shouldn’t have” this year (Giants and Bears on the road, Ravens at home). I predict they keep CW at minimum wage, and see what a healthy TJ does next season. We aren’t playing for playoffs, so might as well shut him down for the year and let CW play.
I don't know what your problem is, but I bet it's really hard to pronounce!
I say get a monkey!
Put a helmet on a monkey! Even he can play better than T-Jack. I’ll bet Red Bryant wouldn’t ever fumble ever!
This statement lack foundation or reason.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
Realistically
For those dreamers out there on Manning, forget it, not happening… there is a reason why Eli Manning wouldn’t sign with the Chargers when they drafted him… the Manning ’family and that includes Peyton, will not play on the west.
So realistically… option 1) Kyle Orton – He’s had some good seasons for sure, is he our solution though?? Flynn – can he be long term solution?
option 2) Draft – We know Luck and RG3 will be gone by the time we draft, which leads us to the other QBs. Landry Jones is a good QB with above average arm strength and works his progressions well… Ryan Tannehill – I think he’s too raw, has some tools but definately a project, Nick Foles – I really like this kid, massive arm, decent mobility, decision making and progressions need work, but a year as back-up to TJack is all he’ll need… I like him better than Tannehill.
option 3) Trade for Claussen or Quinn – I really don’t think either is our long term solution. I wouldn’t mind testing it though… Claussen over Quinn, wouldn’t cost much via trade 4th or 5th round pick. Option 2, I’d prefer though.
Eli didn't want to play for the Chargers because of how they treated Ryan Leaf
Apparently Peyton was surprised on how Leaf was treated in San Diego versus him in Indianapolis – Leaf was basically left on his own, which is definitely a no-no for any rookie QB.
So it’s not they didn’t want to play in the West, just because they didn’t want to play for the Chargers.
"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff
by EequalsMc2 on Dec 26, 2011 2:41 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Something else to consider with Clausen...
…is that coaching staff gets to see him play every day in practice; if there’s something there – that is, if they feel like he still has it, not enough to replace Newton of course, but enough that they like having him there as the back-up, he may not be as available as one might hope.
Anyone the ’Hawks can get for nothing or next to nothing is unlikely to provide a significant boost over T-Jack.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
Why is Drew Brees absent from the list, but..
Players under contract for next year or so are?
I find the absence of Brees a telling tale about how skewed the list is. As far as i can tell he still hasnt gotten an extention. According to Rotoworld.com (a great place to find out about contracts) He is a free agent next year.
He is, in my opinion, equal to manning in skill, younger, healthier and fits PCJS’s idea of the optimal QB much more than Manning.
He is far superior to Orton in every way but age. Considering Favre, you might expect exceptional quality QBs can last into their 40s, brees could have another 8+ years as a QB.
Not that I disagree with you about Brees being a FA, but I doubt N'awlins doesn't lock him up on an extension/re-signing.
It would be very hard to fathom. So despite being currently under contract, Peyton is likely more available due to the “Luck” of the Colts and Peyton’s injury situation.
"Now I'm tired of this s---. I'm sick and f------ tired of an 8-10 record. I'm f------ tired of losing to Purdue. I'm not here to f--- around this week. Now you may be, but I'm not." -- Bobby Knight, circa 1992
by Tyler Jorgensen on Dec 30, 2011 3:26 PM PST up reply actions
Did Brees say that?
Did Brees’ agent say that?
Did Jim Irsay say he had manning on the trade block? the Cut block?
Lets at least be consistent with who we put on the list.
Matt Flynn as far as we can tell has the same opportunities to be resigned as Brees.
A direct quote from Brees “And from the discussions we had, going back and forth, there was no progress really being made.” Brees wants 100 mill, saints want to pay 72 mill. If the hawks want to pay, he will be available for 100 mill.
So Im not sure how all indications are leaning towards him resigning, unless of course Brees doesnt count for an indicator.
I take issue with the statement "Hass was a far more accomplished college passer than Flynn"
Hasselbeck started 2 seasons. limited action in the 2 other seasons. College career 22TD’s and 26INT’s 55% completion
Flynn started 1 season. Limited action in the 3 other seasons (behind JaMarcus Russel). College carreer 31TD’s and 14INT’s 58% completion. PLUS he won the National Championship game and was the Offensive MVP of the game. To me it’s hands down that Flynn was the most accomplished college QB.
I’m really hopeful this kid gets his shot with the Hawks next year! If he does I’m confident that he’ll be our QB for the next decade.

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