On Carson Palmer, Final
Filling holes is a time honored tradition. Every team, every draft season, fills holes. What comprises a hole is subjective, but, basically, it means a position manned by an inadequate starter that also lacks talented depth to push that starter. The Seahawks have their share, but so do the Steelers and the Packers. Every team has holes and no team ever completely fills their holes. As the season progresses, injuries puncture new holes. The Packers lost Ryan Grant, Jermichael Finley, Nick Barnett and Morgan Burnett for the season, have started Howard Green at defensive end, and will start Green at defensive end in the Super Bowl. Green will start alongside other journeymen like outside linebacker Erik Walden and strong safety Charlie Peprah. That is a lot of holes. Both of Pittsburgh's starting offensive tackles are on injured reserve. The Steelers offensive line has been labeled a hole in pressing need of filling for as long as I can remember. Holes. Holes. Holes.
Few of them filled and none of them stopping either team from making the Super Bowl. This isn't unprecedented or a twist or working from an exception to make a rule. Teams that play the 19 or 20 games it takes to make and win the Super Bowl always have holes. Injuries happen, depth is insufficient, sometimes the team started the season with the hole, or the drop from starter to depth wasn't dramatic, but however you frame it, a Super Bowl caliber team is not a team without holes, is not a team that starts good players at every position, it is a team like the Seahawks, but much better at a few key positions.
Super Bowl teams are not defined by who is missing, but who remains. No one remembers or cares that Kawika Mitchell and James Butler started for the Giants in Super Bowl XLII, that Green and Walden will start for the Packers this Sunday, or that D.D. Lewis and Marquand Manuel started for the Seahawks in Super Bowl XL. People remember Osi, Justin, Mathias and Michael tearing through the Patriots vaunted offense. People will remember what Troy Polamalu did, what Aaron Rodgers did, what Greg Jennings did. We remember Jones, Hutchinson and Matt Hasselbeck.
The argument against trading for Caron Palmer is typically: Seattle has too many holes. Seattle can not afford to trade picks, because it has too many needs. And it does. And Palmer isn't enough. Seattle has holes, tons of them, but more importantly, Seattle does not have enough total talent to be a great team. It isn't there, it isn't close and to get there it needs better talent on offense and defense. It needs to take a flier on a converted wide receiver and have that player produce like Sam Shields. It needs to sign an aged left tackle, stick him at right, and watch him run block like Flozell Adams. It needs -- to cut through the rhetoric -- to invest and see that investment turn into something more.
The argument against trading for Carson Palmer should be: He is not worth more than what Seattle will have to pay. He is not worth more for the Seahawks.
To answer the first, that is probably not true. Palmer will probably be more valuable than even the 25th overall pick, and a first round pick is quite a bit to ask. Whether Cincinnati will admit it or not, Palmer has the Bengals over a barrel. When Brett Favre exacted a trade, the Packers settled for a fourth round pick from the Jets. It wasn't as if Favre was washed up either. He averaged 7.2 ANY/A in 2007, an average Palmer has only surpassed once in his career. But even if that were the deal, Palmer would still likely be more valuable. An average 25th overall pick is worth 28 AV. Pro Football Reference lists Larry Triplett as representing an "average" 25th overall pick. Over the last five seasons, the presumed length Seattle can count on Palmer as a starter and the typical length of a late first-round rookie's contract, Palmer has been worth 52, and that includes a lost 2008 season.
To answer the latter, this might be true. The Seahawks have a handful of players with star potential and no stars. Some talent can be added through free agency, but the Seahawks also need to hit big on a few draft picks. There is the potential that even if Seattle lands Palmer, doesn't overpay, and Palmer plays well, the Seahawks will still take a step back. That 25th overall pick might typically become a Larry Triplett, but sometimes you land an Ed Reed, Ray Lewis, Derrick Brooks, Darrell Green or even Dan Marino. Palmer might easily beat out the production of an average draft pick, but his potential to become an absolute steal is unlikely. The Seahawks need some absolute steals to build back towards being a great team.
We started here and we end here, because it is the only rational conclusion: If the price is right, if the party is willing, and if the Seahawks are the right fit. But from those sore platitudes, we can now set some parameters. Palmer is still very valuable, probably more valuable than what Seattle will pay in trade. Palmer is probably willing. He burned his bridges to Cincinnati, and watching him, watching Marvin Lewis, watching the sideshow that is Ocho and Owens, I think Palmer would rather retire than return. The Seahawks may or may not be the right fit. Seattle is not a Carson Palmer away from being a great team, a Green Bay or Pittsburgh. But Palmer could be part of the plan. Trading for Palmer could be one move in a series of moves that push the Seahawks back towards contention. Trading for Palmer could prove to be the most important move of all.
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I'll tell you what I do remember:
I remember that Manuel went down during the SB, and the Steelers’ road to victory in that game went right through (or over?) his replacement. Some holes are big enough that they do define a team, and that one did.
IMHO, our current QB situation is in that category; there would be risk in dealing for Palmer, sure, but at this point, I think we’re weak enough at QB to make a reasonable evaluation of what else we need to do on offense effectively impossible. I would be hesitant to deal the #25 pick, because you’re right — we need some steals to build this team into a contender, and Palmer isn’t likely to be a steal at that price — but to get steals, you have to take gambles; at a lower price, I think Palmer is a gamble very much worth taking.
by The Ancient Mariner on Feb 2, 2011 2:44 PM PST reply actions
Yes, I know
I deliberately didn’t give him the honor of referring to him by name. As I said, the Steelers’ road to victory went right through him — unless you think that isn’t strong enough and prefer to say it went right over him.
by The Ancient Mariner on Feb 2, 2011 5:29 PM PST up reply actions
I would trade the 25th pick for Palmer, I'd prefer not to, but I wouldn't cry if Seattle did.
With that said, I don’t think Seattle will make a trade for Palmer, I think they’d be more likely to trade a younger QB like Young or Kolb.
by MFAN on Feb 2, 2011 2:57 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I'd definitely understand trading the 25th for Palmer.
If we could get him for a second I’d do backflips.
by BrianL on Feb 2, 2011 3:26 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
How sad would it be if we had the opportunity to get Palmer for a third...
…but can’t because we used it to get Charlie.
It wouldn't be that hardfor the Seahawks to offer two picks (maybe one this year and a conditional one in 2012) that was worth approximately the same as a 3rd rounder.
Nor do I believe it would be THAT difficult for the Seahawks to trade for a 3rd rounder, to then swap for Palmer.
Trading their first round pick for Palmer could only really be justified if everything breaks right.
There would be a lot more ways for that to fail than for it to succeed.
Well if it fails really bad in the 1st year then....Luck!
It’s risky and maybe not too smart, but I think its justifiable.
I'll repost what I said in Palmer III...
IF PC wants him, and IF Cincy demands a first, I would give them #25 and #57 for CP and their #35.
I would do this in a heartbeat.
"Retarded isn't a race." -Thingray
by Matt Erickson on Feb 2, 2011 4:09 PM PST up reply actions
it would be a good trade.
"I was 11 or 12 and Quinton was like 30. He was the only dude on the Pop Warner team who had a full mustache and a beard. And he used to drive to Pop Warner games. You're not supposed to be doing that. It was crazy." -Marshawn Lynch
John Morgan for President!!!
I learn a lot about football in general reading your stuff dude. The cloud I had over Palmer has been lifted reading this 4 part series and I am able to see now his “lackluster” performance is not really purely based on a personal decline. He has 3 good years left at least to Hasstowacks one possible ok year, plus he throws better more versatile passes and you won’t see 3 red zone picks in one game from him imo. What would it take to get Palmer though? The more we look at the QB’s in the draft the more we all seem to doubt the possibility of a sure bet NFL player for us especially at 25th and lower. Palmer throwing to Williams, Obo, Tate, Butler, Morrah etc. would be nice to watch. I think its more than possible to get him but I don’t know if PC and them will pull the plug on Matt till next year, I want to see something different as a fan, and by different I don’t mean watching a rookie throw picks all year or Hass get carried out on stretchers and into anti-porn conventions. On a serious note I do have lots of respect for Hass and what he has done for the Hawks in the past but recently, meh.
"I was 11 or 12 and Quinton was like 30. He was the only dude on the Pop Warner team who had a full mustache and a beard. And he used to drive to Pop Warner games. You're not supposed to be doing that. It was crazy." -Marshawn Lynch
by IMIN4LIFE on Feb 2, 2011 3:09 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
anti-porn crusade joke, not funny again right chrees, just like "my superbowl prediction"...
"I was 11 or 12 and Quinton was like 30. He was the only dude on the Pop Warner team who had a full mustache and a beard. And he used to drive to Pop Warner games. You're not supposed to be doing that. It was crazy." -Marshawn Lynch
You could've actually stopped your sentence after "anti-porn crusade joke"
just because I honestly didn’t know where the reference was coming from.
However, your defensive response was definitely more amusing than both your Hasselbeck name and your super bowl prediction combined.
by chrees on Feb 2, 2011 3:34 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
are you a member of the xxxchurch?
"I was 11 or 12 and Quinton was like 30. He was the only dude on the Pop Warner team who had a full mustache and a beard. And he used to drive to Pop Warner games. You're not supposed to be doing that. It was crazy." -Marshawn Lynch
Am I the only one that finds that name misleading?
I could see myself being very disappointed after attending a mass.
by John Morgan on Feb 2, 2011 3:55 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
XXXchurch.com you expect to see a bunch of Nun's and Priest going at it then...
all you get is Hass and Ryan Pickett telling you not to wack it BOOOHHH!!!
"I was 11 or 12 and Quinton was like 30. He was the only dude on the Pop Warner team who had a full mustache and a beard. And he used to drive to Pop Warner games. You're not supposed to be doing that. It was crazy." -Marshawn Lynch
I hope I didn't start a Hasselbeck/Masturbation meme after yesterday
Who doesn’t like to Hassturbate?
Fire Gus "What's a screen?" Bradley.
by SSreporters on Feb 2, 2011 3:26 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
SS help me out with an alternate name for McCown.
Josh McCown, who spent seven years in the NFL before signing on with the United Football League, tells viewers he began to deal with his porn problem because he feared it was “taking me someplace I didn’t want to go.”
“It’s a whole lot easier to tell your wife you’re struggling with it than to have her walk in on you,” he says in the video.
I disagree Josh its a lot easier to get your woman interested in porn so you can possibly engage in the same sexual acts in real life, but he DIFFERENT STROKES for different folks. HAHHAHAH!
"I was 11 or 12 and Quinton was like 30. He was the only dude on the Pop Warner team who had a full mustache and a beard. And he used to drive to Pop Warner games. You're not supposed to be doing that. It was crazy." -Marshawn Lynch
Must have been real bad if it took him places worse than the United Football League.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Feb 2, 2011 4:15 PM PST up reply actions
yeah I never wanna see that place.
"I was 11 or 12 and Quinton was like 30. He was the only dude on the Pop Warner team who had a full mustache and a beard. And he used to drive to Pop Warner games. You're not supposed to be doing that. It was crazy." -Marshawn Lynch
we can work on that tho bro!!! Your Band is dope by the way!
Everyone check out this guys band “Midnight Magic” its Rad for realz!!!
http://midnightmagicsounds.com/
Good stuff bro I want an album…lets get the sports section on Reddit going!
"I was 11 or 12 and Quinton was like 30. He was the only dude on the Pop Warner team who had a full mustache and a beard. And he used to drive to Pop Warner games. You're not supposed to be doing that. It was crazy." -Marshawn Lynch
by IMIN4LIFE on Feb 2, 2011 3:52 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
aw thanks man
it’s rare to meet someone who shares the common interest of sports (specifically Seahawks) & dance music. Thanks for the shoutout.
Hmm, so we can have
Hassel-wack, Carson “Palmer”, or Kevin “Slob On My” Kolb? Man, where else can we go with this? Marc Bulger? Dennis "Dicks"on? Jim "Sore"gi? Kyle "Ball"er?
Ok I’ll stop.
"Retarded isn't a race." -Thingray
by Matt Erickson on Feb 2, 2011 4:07 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
ew.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Feb 2, 2011 4:17 PM PST up reply actions
Isaiah "Stand"back
"Retarded isn't a race." -Thingray
by Matt Erickson on Feb 2, 2011 4:20 PM PST up reply actions
If kevin fails to show us his best Kolb and Carson isn't a great Palmer then...
I HASSTOWACK at the possibility of drafting a project a new QB!
"I was 11 or 12 and Quinton was like 30. He was the only dude on the Pop Warner team who had a full mustache and a beard. And he used to drive to Pop Warner games. You're not supposed to be doing that. It was crazy." -Marshawn Lynch
This thread is going right on top the résumé.
by John Morgan on Feb 2, 2011 4:51 PM PST reply actions 4 recs
My apologies, John
I’ll hold myself to a higher standard ;)
"Retarded isn't a race." -Thingray
by Matt Erickson on Feb 2, 2011 5:04 PM PST up reply actions
you should start a Seattle Seahawks football blog
you’ve got mad skills. You could write your thoughts about the Hawks and informed citizens could converse, argue point/counterpoint in a thought provoking manner.
Forget Carson Palmer
I would rather throw Charlie in there then overpay an old, feeble, and probably tired veteran by the name of Carson Palmer.
We are not one avg qb from having a great team. What is the point of trading away picks for another avg gb who’s both old, and fragile?
It would be smart for Seattle to pick players that is otherwise overlooked to fill the many gaps and voids on our current team.
Carson might be good for what 3 years. A rookie might be good for us 6+ years.
It is unfortunate that in Seattle we don’t have more skilled and active writers/commentators/bloggers like John with different perspective.
Seconded
Palmer is old and beat up, and we are not a veteran QB away from contending. This team needs to allocate draft resources to youth. In a vacuum I like the player and still see flashes of the guy who put up ridiculous numbers at USC. But he recently bought a retirement pad in Del Mar and is on his career downslope. I suppose he could have a Kurt Warner-esque renaissance but I’m not sure he has the fire.
by lemonverbena on Feb 4, 2011 8:24 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
It would depend on who we were passing up at 25
I can’t imagine that I would be willing to let that spot go for Palmer. I would trade them Tats and CW for CP, but not the 25 pick.
I think the chance of getting strong value for 3-5 years is much higher with Palmer
than rolling the dice on a college player at 25 who may or may not meet lofty expectations or develop to be an impact player in the NFL. See Curry, Jennings, Unger, Tate etc. (and I understand I am mixing in 2nd round talent as well)
Palmer is a known entity with a proven NFL track record. Any player taken in the draft will be a bigger gamble in my mind (with perhaps a greater upside, and likely a longer career as a Seahawk, granted)
I will admit there is a non-zero possibility of Palmer coming here and flaming out (either through lack of motivation, accelerated physical deterioration, lack of protection, WR separation, etc.), I just think the odds are better that he succeeds over the next few years than the typical high draft pick.
Palmer's track record after injuries is quite a bit different than his track record before it.
And at 31 you would expect him to become steadily less effective than he already is.
Agreed. It all depends on how steep the decline curve is. And resurgence is also a non-zero possibility
And would the decline be closer to Hass or Favre? (Granted Favre and Warner are outliers, but as has been pointed out, chances are better for a more graceful decline if you start with world-class tools to begin with — the injury wildcard withstanding)
Nate Davis ?
What’s up with this kid? I keep seeing the word accurate when they describe his game. That’s a nice place to start.
He ate his way off the Niners while they were trying to convert him into a TE
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Feb 3, 2011 9:10 AM PST up reply actions
Hmmmm, maybe BMFMW can spend some quality time with him
and share some wisdom as he leads by example
I think BMW can be more of an influence than Pete can
Nate is Scott’s guy and may not be ready for change quite yet.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Feb 3, 2011 11:59 AM PST up reply actions
Refutation of Carson Palmer as a Seahawk
the fact is Carson Palmer will must likely be when all is said and done, will be an Arizona Cardinal for these reasons:
1. The Arizona Cardinals are a team just two years removed from the Super Bowl, carried by Veteran Kurt Warner’s arm, so they know what a Veteran QB can do with this offense.
2. Ken Whisenhunt, coached against Palmer twice a year when he was a coach with the Steelers, so he knows just how good Palmer actually is.
3. As the old saying goes, new coaches get new qb’s. Ken Whisenhunt is not going to go draft a new qb he’s gonna pick up a veteran anyway he can through Free Agency, or trade. Some say Donvan McNabb I say your smoking crack Whisenhunt will go with what he’s famliar with and that’s Carson Palmer.
4. Carson Palmer will be salivating at the prospect of throwing to Larry Fitzgerald, and Steve Breaston and/or Early Ducet (depending on who they resign). This will also open up their run game because the won’t need Tim Hightower to stay back, and block, and be the first target as an outlet guy, so they can start their more talented RB Chris Wells, with no worries.
5. As a member of the Arizona Cards, Palmer will go up against the dare I say it, the weak defenses of the NFC West, and prove once again, how underappreciated the man really is.
by Christian Bussey on Feb 4, 2011 3:34 PM PST reply actions
Hate to say it, but I can't disagree with any of this.
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, anymore than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." - George Bernard Shaw
by Tyler Jorgensen on Feb 4, 2011 4:48 PM PST up reply actions

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