Seahawks Scouting with Rob Staton: Caleb King, Terrelle Pryor and the Supplemental Draft; Adam Weber and the NFC West's Draft
It's been a few weeks since we caught up with Rob Staton of Seahawks Draft Blog, but I had the chance to ask him a few questions related to the scouting of college players and what he thought of the 2011 NFL Draft. Read on to hear some of his thoughts.
DK: What can you tell us about Georgia RB Caleb King? He recently declared himself eligible for the supplemental draft. Would he be someone worth taking a look at if you're the Seahawks?
RS: King is going to need to go to the UFL in my opinion and try to prove that he's worth a shot in the NFL. I'm not convinced any team will bite in the supplemental draft. You're talking about a run of the mill, between the tackles runner without electrifying speed or elusiveness - the kind you find in any draft. His experience in college football is limited and so is the production. Why would you spend a 2012 draft pick on him now? If you were after a late round running back, you drafted one last April when there was some decent depth at the position. I doubt the Seahawks will show any interest here.
DK: Because we can't talk Seahawks without talking quarterbacks...
You've talked on Seahawks Draft Blog a bit recently about Terrelle Pryor. He seems to have captured the interest of some Seahawks fans, but by most accounts only if he comes cheaply. You stated, and I agree, that the Seahawks are probably as likely as any team to take a flyer on him.
At the risk of repeating what you've already printed, what are some ways you could see the Seahawks using him? In wildcat formations, sort of like the Jets used Brad Smith? A move to wide receiver? An attempt to develop him as a every-down QB? Purely speculative of course, but what are your thoughts as Pryor pertains to the Hawks plans moving forward?
RS: If the Seahawks are interested in Terrelle Pryor, it's because they believe he can become a quarterback. I think you only consider a position change if after making the investment he just doesn't show the necessary development as a passer.
Seattle's existing need at quarterback and the lack of a young 'project' on the roster is the reason I would say the Seahawks are as likely as anyone to show interest. You're talking about an excellent physical specimen with ideal size and an incredible ability to extend plays by avoiding pressure.
However, he's a thrower not a passer right now. There's no touch or technique to his throws and he's a substantial project as a pro-quarterback. He needs a minimum of at least two years working with an excellent quarterback coach and/or offensive coordinator working with the same playbook. He's not even at the level right now where you could work from a watered down playbook with a few easy passes and boot legs and get an adequate level of play.
If he's prepared to work hard and appreciate the improvements he needs to make, you could find yourself a bargain with a round 4-6 pick in the supplemental draft. That may be the main problem though because is he really going to do the ground work? Is he going to buy into a system, a coach, a team? In some ways he's an obvious candidate for Pete Carroll's next Mike Williams, Leon Washington, Marshawn Lynch-type project - someone he can take a chance on at a low price who others have written off. But we're not talking about a skill player here, we're talking about a quarterback - the most important position on the team.
In some ways Carroll is the ideal coach for a guy like Pryor, I'm just not convinced Pryor is the ideal guy for Carroll.
DK: More on quarterbacks...
Previously this offseason, you mentioned Adam Weber of Minnesota as a possible UDFA QB target for the Hawks. Since then, Josh Portis has a rumored link, many fans have mentioned Adam Froman, the list goes on. Do you still see Weber as a target? If so why? What do you think of Portis' chances if he were picked up? Further, any other QBs on your radar that haven't been talked about much?
Weber has an arm and can move around, which is the main reason I touted him for Seattle as a possible camp body. His height is a problem. He did a better job limiting his turnovers last year and only had two picks against USC and Purdue. I think he did a good job against Wisconsin and Illinois, but really you're not pinning much hope in these UDFA quarterbacks because they generally are just clipboard holders and scout team possibilities.
Portis is in the same boat that he's athletic and can get the ball downfield (based on highlights I've watched only). Given the team's lack of any quarterback for the future if any of these players were perceived to be potential starters down the line you suspect at the very least they'd have been snapped up in the late rounds of the draft. I've never scouted Josh Portis so can't comment specifically on his abilities, but if he is given a shot by Seattle all we can do is wish him the best.
DK: Just in general, whose draft did you like the most, for teams in the NFC West? People sort of know how the Hawks did - and naturally the jury is still out on everything, but did you love or hate what the 49ers, Cardinals, or Rams did this year?
I think the Rams had a really strong draft and without doubt they are the team the Seahawks need to worry about the most. Robert Quinn is not faultless by any means, but he's joining the ideal team. That defensive line is growing very nicely and the head coach knows how to coach a Championship winning pass-rush.
They spent their next three picks on targets for Sam Bradford in tight end Lance Kendricks and receivers Austin Pettis and Greg Salas. Josh McDaniels has many faults, but his offensive scheme generates passing yards and we saw how Kyle Orton and Brandon Lloyd benefitted last year. McDaniels may be the second best thing St. Louis did after drafting Bradford and in Salas he'll have a reliable if unspectacular target.
The one area of concern is the interior offensive line - specifically the two guard slots. I expect that will be a target in free agency. Linebacker also needs attention. I want to be positive about the Seahawks chances in the NFC West - but St. Louis have created a very good defensive line that will generate pressure, they already have a strong running game and they've added a couple of solid receivers for their soon-to-be stud quarterback. That is some platform to build a contender and it wouldn't shock me if they not only won the NFC West this year, but also made a fist of it in the playoffs.
The other two teams I feel less enthusiastic about. I like Aldon Smith in San Fran but I pinned him as a 4-3 defensive end rather than a 3-4 OLB. It concerns me a little bit that he returned very quickly from a serious injury last season and didn't look as sharp as 2009. They've taken a chance on Colin Kaepernick and he comes into a good situation with two good receiving options and a running game - they should see what they have with CK instead of going back down the Alex Smith road. You have to ask though - should they have taken Blaine Gabbert? I would've done so, knowing I had the weapons to help him start early. If Gabbert succeeds, it defines the 49ers draft because they passed. It would've been a great place for Gabbert, but Harbaugh knows quarterbacks I suppose.
Kendall Hunter is a value pick in round four, but the questions marks will remain at quarterback (unless Kaepernick hits the ground running) and in the secondary (they did spend a third rounder on Chris Culliver). Better coaching will significantly help the 49ers.
It's the same question with Arizona really - you've passed on Blaine Gabbert knowing he'd be throwing to Larry Fitzgerald. It doesn't matter how good Patrick Peterson is at cornerback if Gabbert is lighting up the AFC South with Jacksonville. You have an elite receiver and a farce of a quarterback situation. Sure, they need more in the secondary - it was a big need. But Arizona went from repeat NFC West champs, playoff contenders and Super Bowl runners up to irrelevant because they went from Kurt Warner to Max Hall.
Yes they are probably going to sign a veteran and that may provide enough of a stop gap. But what about the year after? Or the year after that? If they trade DRC for Kevin Kolb, they could end up with an expensive investment in Kolb and a mere shuffling of deckchairs in the secondary. I just don't see the point spending top money on Larry Fitzgerald, Vernon Davis and Michael Crabtree if you're going to pinch hit at quarterback. It doesn't mean reaching for a player you don't trust and both Washington and Tennessee agreed with AZ and SF on Gabbert. However, I liked his physical qualities and his accuracy - and he now has that added factor that several teams passed. My sources had Gabbert as the top ranked quarterback on Seattle's board.
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Hmmm
If he’s prepared to work hard and appreciate the improvements he needs to make, you could find yourself a bargain with a round 4-6 pick in the supplemental draft
I don’t know what picks we have to spend in the supplemental. We put a 2012 pick in Polumbus (6th? 7th? I dunno) and a conditional 2012 in Marshawn (no idea where this pick goes).
Anyway, on topic. Thanks but no thanks. He’s not only just a thrower, he doesn’t even have an impressive arm. He doesn’t look like a QB prospect to me, not by any stretch.
Yeah, yeah.
You can say a lot of things about TP, but physical skills are not his problem. His arm is just fine, I laughed out loud when I read that. His problem is from the neck up. He makes poor decisions throwing (And didn’t develop a lot there), but he is a winner.. evidenced by the number of 3rd & 15 game winning / saving scrambles. TP is a 65% comp rate passer.
Here’s a breakdown of people who actually watched him play. The Gruden bit is somewhat made for TV, but the rest of it offers a much better (and accurate) perspective on what kind of player he is:
http://www.alongtheolentangy.com/2011/7/6/2259893/jon-gruden-with-terrelle-pryor
http://www.alongtheolentangy.com/2010/11/24/1832759/osu-v-iowa-osu-offensive-review
http://www.alongtheolentangy.com/2010/11/17/1818232/osu-v-psu-osu-offensive-review
http://www.alongtheolentangy.com/2010/9/15/1690202/ohio-state-v-miami-offensive-review
http://buckeyefootballanalysis.blogspot.com/2010/01/rose-bowl-review-ohio-states-offense.html
Armchair Linebacker
Where did Rob say that Pryor had a weak arm?
Technique and touch have little to do with raw arm strength.
by Coach Owens on Jul 14, 2011 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions
Do keep a civil tone, and do not snidely imply I did not watch him play
Pryor is an athlete and that’s all he is. He’s a thrower, not a passer. He has an average arm with little velocity on his ball. He does not have any QB skills that transition well to the NFL. I’m not saying it’s impossible he turns into an NFL QB, but if you draft him as a team you are essentially starting from scratch with someone whose athleticism makes him better suited to convert to another position than to play QB. He’s a big athlete with an average arm and no QB smarts, why would any team target him as a QB prospect when he could be a much quicker and better conversion to another position?
Feel free to disagree, but try not to take it so personally.
by Thomas Beekers on Jul 14, 2011 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's not personal.
One of the best parts about this blog is the X & O chat, the off-hand dismissal of talent is another thing. If you want to tear him down, show by example. The links I referenced are filled with many critical comments of him, based on analysis and evidence. This is what I’m pointing out here.
We definitely agree that Pryor is a project, but I have watched all but 2 of his college games (many in person), and I just don’t see the comment about velocity or arm strength. If you’re comparing him to Brett Farve, sure, he doesn’t throw quite as hard has he does, but I’m sure evaluations by scouts will illustrate that his arm strength is more than adequate after the lockout ends. He’s got plenty of issues, but that isn’t one. For what it’s worth, I read and appreciate your ongoing contribution to the content of this fine blog. Expressing my opinion isn’t that different from the original criticism…tone or otherwise. Don’t take it personally.
Armchair Linebacker
His arm strength is at best average
If you want examples of scouts/film guys saying the same, here’s Charles Davis and Greg Cosell. And the low scouting grade, but that system sucks.
I didn’t watch a lot of Pryor because I wanted to see if he was a legit NFL QB prospect and it didn’t take me long to see he’s not. I’m from the Cosell school of thinking. Arm strength + pocket presence + ability to read is the key to being a good NFL QB. Pryor doesn’t have noteworthy skills at any of those fields. Meanwhile, he has the athleticism to convert to WR or QB as other athletic low-skill QBs have before. If he has any future in the NFL, that’s it.
by Thomas Beekers on Jul 15, 2011 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions
That description makes Pryor sound a lot like Jake Locker
except that Pryor has a track record of winning a lot of college football games.
by Suburban Shocker on Jul 14, 2011 11:16 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Not really
Pryor has a track record of being on a superb team that won a lot of college football games despite the fact that he didn’t develop the way everyone hoped.
by The Ancient Mariner on Jul 14, 2011 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions
even more like Locker!
in the “didn’t develop the way everyone hoped” category.
I realize I’m sounding slightly trollish with this, but the description really does seems similar. I’ll grant that descriptions of Locker’s work ethic are a big reason why scouts trust him to make the necessary improvements.
by Suburban Shocker on Jul 14, 2011 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
It all depends for Seattle on,,,
,,,what they do for a Qb in 2011.
He is the definition of “development”. That said, if we got a Palmer for 3-4 years he might be worth handing a clipboard to. Matt H., on the other hand, would not encourage me to go swimming in the supplemental pool because who knows how long before we are in this same situation. VY and TP would be entertaining but carries a team chemistry question, I could see that happening.
One of my main issues with the TP developmental road is how good our coaching staff is at developing Qb’s. Pete seems to want a point guard Qb and does not carry an Andy Reid, Holmy style reputation for developing Qb’s. So the bottom line I have is TP might be interesting for Seattle if he has the time to learn.
Which round? For Seattle most want to project an interest in rounds 4-6. That would be reasonable I guess but I would be willing to bet he’ll be picked by someone by the 3rd round. As early as the 2nd maybe. If he goes in the 1st I would smell a “ray-duh”.
Bacon is man's best friend and ruff don't get none.
On reflection, I wouldn't go after Pryor.
But then again, I think this FO’s approach to drafting and roster construction is very different than mine would be. I separate the world of prospects into two categories: the very elite and everyone else. Only the former category is worth expending energy to chase. For all the rest, I prefer the “value investor model,” like Warren Buffett — if a great value falls into your lap, take it. Stick to your draft board, and inevitably, when other teams take players who are lower on your board ahead of you, your picks will start looking like bargains. Someone you’ve graded as a fourth-round talent will be there in the fifth round; take that guy. (This is overly simplistic, of course — there will probably be a few similarly graded players available, and you should make picks based on what you’ve already done so far, balancing not only positions but risk-reward profile and so on. But the general point is, maximize value and leave it to the staff to make it all fit.) So for supplemental picks, underbid on the theory that the pick next year will yield some real value. If you grade Pryor as a fourth-round talent, bid a fifth or a sixth, hope to get lucky, and don’t sweat it in the very likely event that someone outbids you.
Now, I think this front office goes about things very differently. They form specific ideas about what types of players they want at all positions and at all levels, and then do what they need to get those players. And I don’t mean to denigrate that — even Warren Buffett avoids companies that are outside his expertise, despite the apparent value proposition. I don’t think the team is so worried about overpaying, if they get what they want. And if they decide they like Pryor, I think they’ll chase him.
by Suburban Shocker on Jul 15, 2011 2:19 PM PDT reply actions

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