Assessing the Seahawks' Roster: Cornerbacks
by Danny Kelly on Jul 23, 2011 9:00 AM PDT
in Seahawks Player Analysis
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PrintI've started breaking down the Seahawks' roster pre-training camp and pre-free-agency. I wanted to take a closer look at the cornerback position. In my armchair GM series, I stated that the Seahawks would keep a pretty large group of corners for training camp and see who shines and stinks. I set that group as Marcus Trufant, Walter Thurmond, Roy Lewis, Josh Pinkard, Kennard Cox, Marcus Brown, Brandon Browner, Richard Sherman, Byron Maxwell, and (UDFA) Darrin Walls. Past this group, there's a chance that Kelly Jennings gets re-signed here. Ideally, he'll be re-signed to play the nickel back spot and in the bandit package, but there's still a chance they view him as the best bet opposite Marcus Trufant (though I doubt it).
No one really knows how big of a splash the Hawks plan to make in free agency, but if they decide to loosen up the pursestrings for a big name cornerback, there are a few on the market. Nnamdi Asomugha, Johnathan Joseph, and Antonio Cromartie are all players that should fetch big paydays. If they were to go after one of those players my vote would be for Joseph - he's young (27), on the verge of being 'elite', and would instantly upgrade our entire secondary with his coverage and ball skills.
There are some intriguing UDFA players that I could see the Hawks targeting as well. Ryan Jones, Kevin Rutland, and Darrin Walls are the three I've picked out of the bunch that could be on the Hawks' radars. John Schneider has specifically stated that they have their eyes on one corner in rookie free agency, so keep an eye on that when the lockout is lifted.
Because the Hawks run a lot of DB-heavy sets (the Bandit, dime and nickel packages), they could possibly keep a larger number of cornerbacks this season than in years past. Last season, they kept 6; this season, it could be as high as eight to accommodate their personnel needs. Let's take a look at some of their options;
On the Roster:
Marcus Trufant
Walter Thurmond
Roy Lewis
Josh Pinkard
Kennard Cox
Marcus Brown
Brandon Browner
Richard Sherman
Byron Maxwell
Free agent possibilities:
Nnamdi Asomugha
Johnathan Joseph
Antonio Cromartie
Brandon Carr
Chris Carr
Brent Grimes
Ike Taylor
Josh Wilson
Richard Marshall
Kelly Jennings
UDFA possibilities:
Darrin Walls
Kevin Rutland
Ryan Jones
Kendrick Burney
The Lowdown:
The Seahawks will likely go into camp with Marcus Trufant, Walter Thurmond, Roy Lewis, Josh Pinkard, Kennard Cox, Marcus Brown, Brandon Browner, Richard Sherman, and Byron Maxwell. They'll likely invite at least one UDFA to compete and it's up in the air as to whether they'll pursue a big name free agent for that position.
If they do, like I said above, the top three targets would be Asomugha, Joseph, and Cromartie. Past that, you see a lot of RFA's so the CBA limitations would be important. Both Brandon Carr and Chris Carr would be interesting options, but Brandon is a RFA regardless of the new CBA so his pursuit is doubtful; Chris is 5'10 so I doubt the Hawks would pursue him. Same goes for RFA Brent Grimes - he's 5'10 and would cost a first rounder likely. Ike Taylor is a real possibility at 6'2 195 but is older (31) so that doesn't mesh with a team that's trying to get younger at every position. Josh Wilson ... well I just don't see that happening. I wouldn't argue against it, but it seems doubtful. Richard Marshall is a decent corner but doesn't really represent a big upgrade over what we currently have on the roster. That leaves us with Kelly Jennings.
Why re-sign Jennings? Well, he's played here his entire career, played better in 2010 than in past years, and doesn't project to likely start if he goes elsewhere. If he can accept that he's probably more valuable to the Hawks as a nickel and dime package player and wants to stay, I'd welcome the move. Ideally, barring any big free agency moves, I'd like to see a healthy Marcus Trufant as our #1 and Walter Thurmond as our #2 corner in 2011, but I still think that Jennings can have value in a more limited role. Everyone knows how much our secondary struggled last season and he didn't help, but Jennings is still very fast, decent in coverage, and is a reliable tackler when asked to be. This might not be a popular move, but he's well-liked in the locker room and he's a hard worker so I wouldn't be against it under the above conditions. His ability to play the quicker and smaller slot guys could come in handy and he'd theoretically be more effective in the DB-heavy packages, in slot rather than on the outside against bigger, stronger opponents.
As far as the UDFA's go, I would guess that Kendrick Burney is a no-go. Though he's thought to be a good coverage cornerback, he's 5'9 so I can't imagine the Hawks going out of their way to sign him considering their recent roster moves.
As I wrote earlier, three corners struck me as possible Seahawk targets:
CB Ryan Jones, Northwest Missouri State
Jones has good size at 5'11, 200 and is very fast, running in the 4.4 range at his pro day. He also ran a respectable 4.18 short shuttle, put up 225 20 times, and registered a 40" vertical. He's been described as more of an athlete than polished football player at this point but he's worked hard at his technique and did produce 6 interceptions last season for Northwest Missouri State. For what it's worth, Wes Bunting is high on him as a developmental player and he'd come cheap at this point. He sounds kind of like a Pete Carroll project to me.
CB Kevin Rutland, Missouri
Has good size/speed ratio at 6'0 190 and runs in the 4.4s. He's pretty raw, and isn't likely to start at corner any time soon, but could be a good developmental project for the Hawks because of their DB heavy packages. He's developed good ball skills that had 120 tackles, 16 passes defended, and 6 interceptions in his career at Missouri. He's a bit wirey but has good hands and reads the QB effectively. He's got long arms and has been effective in re-routing receivers off the line so he could be on the Hawks' radar in free agency.
CB Darrin Walls, Notre Dame
Another guy with good size and speed at 6'0 188, 4.4s in the 40. He's best as a physical press corner and is adept at jamming receivers at the line. If beaten, he has the recovery speed to trail. He sat out his junior year for personal reasons and may be why he wasn't drafted, but he's got the physical makeup to be a starter in the NFL. Also a strong special teams contributor. Could be exactly the type of flyer that Carroll is looking for.
Conclusion:
This is kind of a tough one. My thinking is that the Hawks will keep 6 to 7 corners in 2011, so with that in mind I'd stick with Marcus Trufant, Walter Thurmond, Roy Lewis, Brandon Browner, Richard Sherman, and Byron Maxwell. The caveat point on this group would be the addition of a free agent, which would mean Brandon Browner or possibly Roy Lewis could be on the bubble (he could also be on the PUP list to start the year). If no free agents are pursued, the bubble guys would be Kennard Cox, Marcus Brown, and any of the UDFAs they bring in.
Overall, I think the Hawks have some good depth at the position but lack a true #1 with Marcus Trufant's age and injury history hindering him. If the Hawks went out and signed a #1 guy they'd be in very good shape but I'm not sure how likely they are to do it. Rather, I am more inclined to believe they'll sign a UDFA or two, bring back Jennings, hope to create more pressure on the quarterback from the defensive line, and hope it helps improve the secondary's effectiveness.
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Nice Writeup!
These are always my favorite posts. Feel pretty good about out DBs. With Cincy being so far under the cap i think they have to resign Joseph. Then again he may just want out of that circus. I just don’t see the Hawks being contenders for the top players since we are not contenders and so west coast. I like the route we are going with finding diamonds in the rough that fit our scheme, ie, tall, physical and athletic.
by MeanMachine420 on Jul 23, 2011 11:26 AM PDT reply actions
Leon Hall is a free agent next year
Cincy has already indicated they give preference to renegotiating with him to extend his contract over resigning Joseph. They might do both, though.
by Thomas Beekers on Jul 23, 2011 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Your final point
of improving the secondary through increased pressure on the QB is a good one. I think it’s also how we had some good years of DB play in the mid 2000’s. Similarly talented (probably a little more with a healthy Tru) backfield, made to look good by more consistant pressure. I hope we can make the moves to get that pressure back, especially up the middle.
Portland transplant to Boston.
Yeah, will be important
unless you have shutdown corners, the secondary will continue to look bad until we get pressure from the front 4
Proactive-like-Nonstop
FIELDGULLS
I overlooked this comment originally...
but thats just it, without pressure upfront who cares who you have at CB you’ll get burned by good NFL WR’s if QB’s have all the time in the pocket they want. Giants game last year classic example…there where some good plays by our CB’s in that game but Eli had years to throw the ball and if a recieving core is as stacked like that your gonna get lit up regardless.
"I was 11 or 12 and Quinton was like 30. He was the only dude on the Pop Warner team who had a full mustache and a beard. And he used to drive to Pop Warner games. You're not supposed to be doing that. It was crazy." -Marshawn Lynch
I have extremely high hopes for Browner.
Not just because of what he has done in the CFL but that in combination with PC’s coaching style. PC will hopefully be able to get even more out of him!
Earl Thomas + Mark Legree = Earl Gree. A new flavor of safety coming to you on Sunday's this Fall. They're gonna wake you up!
I feel like there is enough young potential on the squad that they will not break the bank for one of the stud FA's
…but it would be exciting if they did
Gotta spend money tho
We’ll have to spend 29-38 million with the new CBA, depending on whose cap numbers you believe.
by Thomas Beekers on Jul 23, 2011 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Top tier CB without a doubt
I always peg the four key positions for a team as QB, LT, DE and CB, though this shifts a lot depending on scheme (DE becomes primary pass rusher, CB can be replaced by a high-level safety, exterior line weakness can be covered by interior strength (Saints). Still, CB is more important than WR, especially when the QB situation isn’t settled and your talent-level on WR includes BMW and Golden Tate (the corner talent level is not at that level, a bunch of lower picks don’t change that)
by Thomas Beekers on Jul 23, 2011 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions
I think we could accommodate a "#1" WR just fine.
Tate is probably better off in the slot, or in “special” situations – see Percy Harvin. BMW is a great #2 possession guy, and someone like Rice can do everything.
Oh yeah
I wouldn’t complain about Rice, tho’ I’d be wary for over-paying what is in effect someone who’s only shown top-tier play one year and is injury-prone. It’s just not high up on my priority list because there’s a bigger dearth at talent in the Dline and secondary than at WR.
by Thomas Beekers on Jul 23, 2011 7:04 PM PDT up reply actions
If its a Joseph or a "shutdown" CB I would like to spend the money
If not, I would rather spend the money getting pressure on the QB with the DL.
It will not surprise me if Walter Thurmond is considered the best cornerback on the roster by the end of 2011
Or even if he is considered the best after 4 games of the 2011 season. Trufant has been less than stellar since his contract year, and this is not a contract year.
And to Vasilii: I agree about the importance of corner. But I am not so sure Carroll does. In his coaching seminar breakdowns position by position, cornerback is the only one filled with negative speak. It is all do not and should not when Carroll talks about what he is looking for in a corner. The other positions in his defense have dramatically different tones to their description, a much more positive tone. Cornerback is the one of the rare positions that did not churn out high draft picks during his tenure at SC. While up the road at Cal, man coverage NFL studs are the norm.
by Harvey Manfrengenson on Jul 23, 2011 2:13 PM PDT reply actions
College isn't the NFL
And even if it was, PC doesn’t run the team by himself. We’ve clearly seen Schneider has more influence than he was originally credited with, and he knows the value of elite corners.
by Thomas Beekers on Jul 23, 2011 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not saying he hates cornerbacks
but he is true to his Monte Kiffen principles where Rhonde Barber is the prototype, not Darelle Revis. And Elite cornerbacks are the rarest of commodities.
While JS may be aware of the value of cornerbacks, his time here in Seattle and his time in Green Bay suggests he was “raised up” by Ted Thompson not to overpay. Woodson was obtained relatively cheaply in FA in Green Bay, after coming off a couple of injury filled seasons. Woodson had a great rookie season in Oakland, but by the time he went to Green Bay, many thought he had peaked, and was in decline. 17 interceptions over 8 seasons is less than you want from the 4th overall pick. Point is, Schneider was part of the staff that signed him. And this year’s draft suggests that Schneider sees value in late round corner picks, possibly hoping to get a player like they did in Green Bay with the late round selection of Tramon Williams.
I think both coach Carrol and Mr. Manager value good cornerbacks. I just don’t think there is anything to suggest they pay top dollar to them. And considering how this free agency market is likely to unfold, that would eliminate the top 3 cornerbacks on the market. In my opinion.
I think if they are going to throw money at anyone, it is far more likely to be on the DL and at DE.
by Harvey Manfrengenson on Jul 23, 2011 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually, I am reluctant (like it matters how 'reluctant' I am about anything) to see Seattle pay ANY FA big bucks.
Just don’t like the dynamic that creates for the team, and the expectations.
In the case of Curry, the team had to pick someone at #4 (or trade down, I suppose) and whoever they picked was gonna get paid. No one really to blame.
Paying Housh big bucks was a mistake; re-signing Alexander for big bucks was a huge waste (although seemingly deserved at the time).
There are some really interesting OGs in FA (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2011/07/nfl-free-agents-assessing-the-guardcenter-crop/1). The Seahawks could probably pick up one or two of these guys for reasonable contracts.
As much as I’d like to see elite CB play in 2011, I can’t really see paying as much as the top three guys are going to demand.
Which is a lot of words to say, “I agree.”
That is way off.
Ronde Barber is a pure zone coverage guy who is undersized and an exceptional pass-rusher.
PC’s ideal CB is a press-man guy who is big and doesn’t need to pass rush (secondary pass rush comes from the safeties).
I don’t know where you got that bit of info from, but you are completely wrong. We are not a Tampa or even a Cover-2 team. We run man coverage from our corner spots, not zone.
Not overpaying is a good philosophy but not tenable this off-season. The cap needs to be filled. You need to overpay for someone. Either an expensive young player or an old player on a short contract. Guess which one I prefer?
by Thomas Beekers on Jul 23, 2011 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Really? I disagree.
Pete’s philosophy being in agreement with Kiffen is well documented, as are his statements about using Kiffen’s scheme in his secondary. I offer, from one of his coaching seminars, “I want to talk with you now about our base defense the "4-3 under". This defense has stood the test of time. This front and secondary concept is the same basic one Monte Kiffin brought to Arkansas in 1977. This is the same defense we adapted and ran at the Minnesota Vikings together with Floyd Peters. It is the same base defense I run at USC. We have run this defense so long and tweaked it so well that it is simple and easy to adjust. It is a good defense for stopping the run and can give you an aggressive pass rush.” Pete’s words, from an article run on this site.
My recollection of last season was of two distinct secondaries. The first was the Kiffenesque secondary, for which Jennings and Trufant seemed ill equipped. I am sure many on here remember wondering what the hell our corners were doing lined up 8 yards off the ball many times. The second is that as the season progressed, Carroll did go to more press, as well as 6 and 7 man secondary units. But this was a result of his two starting corners being ill equipped for the “Ronde Barber” role, as well as trying to mask Seattle’s secondary porosity with dime and bandit packages. I assumed this was a credit to his ability to use what he has, not a change in secondary philosophy.
His preference for big corners is contained in the same article, but the explanation has little to do with dedicated press coverage and more to do with taking away the inside routes and making quarterbacks hit sideline routes over tall corners.
I too would prefer a shut down corner. But Pete and John attempted to woo both Vincent Jackson and Brandon Marshall, so I have my guesses what they prefer.
by Harvey Manfrengenson on Jul 23, 2011 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
The base defense was developed with Kiffin, the coverage schemes were not.
And I’m not sure why you think that the Ronder Barber role consists of lining up 8 yards from the line of scrimmage, Barber plays up on the line and has a reputation for being great in run support and blitzing.
Not just run support/blitzing
Ronde’s skillset allows him (or did at his peak) to play press zone, which is pretty unique in the NFL. I don’t know that any team uses it with any regularity anymore tho.
Ronde had an amazing career. And is the current ironman of the NFL. Hope he gets his bust.
by Thomas Beekers on Jul 23, 2011 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
You should read Danny's piece on the 4-3 under more carefully
Like on cornerbacks. Or this piece on how the Trojans play the corners in cover-1 with press man “most of the time”. Danny mentions this too, how our primary coverage schemes are man, not zone schemes.
And PC puts his money where his mouth is. He got rid of Josh Wilson, a zone guy, and drafted Thurmond and Sherman, both man and press-man CBs (I think Maxwell is more a S/CB hybrid)
Lining several yards off the corner doesn’t mean you’re playing zone. In fact, map up, which is considered the hardest spot for a corner to play, is pure man coverage like man under, but with the corner giving the WR a free release. Only elite cover corners can play this so we didn’t. We played a lot of loose man which has no receiver jamming but it’s still a coverage scheme.
Here’s a quote from PC on Dick Sure:
Not everyone appreciates press corners like we do, and the length that he has to help him with the jam stuff. It’s a big deal in our style of play, if we can suit our players to it, and Richard is really one of those guys that we’re going to go right at it with him. He’s a big kid; there are very few kids who play corner like that.
And Dick Sure himself:
"Playing press-man is basically what Coach Carroll and his staff I believe brought me in for, and that’s what he preached to me on the phone," Sherman said after Seattle drafted him. "That is one of my biggest strengths. I can press and play man. I’m good in the red zone against bigger receivers, smaller receivers. I think those arethe strengths that I try to bring."
So, I don’t know how else to put this. You’re completely wrong.
by Thomas Beekers on Jul 23, 2011 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Correction. I am wrong about press coverage.
It is a different article where he describes his preference for bigger corners.
In this one he describes that he likes big corners because they can play inside leverage more successfully. He says “To take this even further for example we tell our corners to play inside leverage (i.e. to the inside shoulder of the receiver) in this defense. This helps the corner avoid giving up the big play to the inside of the field. If you want them to play the out route towards the sideline you have to give them someone playing support over the top. There is not a corner in college or the NFL that can both play the out routes and also avoid giving up the deep ball to the inside. You have to be realistic as to what your players can do. They only way a corner can play inside leverage and make a play on the out route is if the offense screws up or the quarterback makes a bad throw or the receiver runs a bad route. If you don’t understand that then you are asking the corner to do something he can’t do.” That is in the basic description of his base defense.
And, “Most of the time we play our corners in some form of press coverage and have at least one safety deep in the hole for protection against the big play.”
I apologize for my misinformedness.
by Harvey Manfrengenson on Jul 23, 2011 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions
What if you're both right?
Traditional Cover-2 corners are small, quick-twitch, vision guys. But like Vasili says, PC has consistently mentioned his desire for larger corners who can play press since he arrived, and did employ
I have some wild speculation – PC has updated his philosophy and the way he runs the Cover-2 for a few reasons:
1) His time at USC gave him an appreciation for the value in throwing off timing. QBs and WRs aren’t nearly polished enough to adjust passing lanes if the WR gets re-routed.
2) NFL offenses feature more precise passing schemes, especially the short passing game.
3) Featured safeties that can fly (T. Mays, E. Thomas) can help out when CBs get beat. No longer need to “keep everything in front of you”.
by PerryCollective on Jul 23, 2011 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions
The major reason why NFL teams play zone coverage:
their corners aren’t good enough to play man coverage. Last year, Pete played with a lot players that didn’t fit his ideal schemes. This year, I think he’ll have a chance to better staff the roles he wants to employ.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jul 23, 2011 11:25 PM PDT up reply actions
I pondered the same question as dialect...
If Joseph isn’t in the mix I’d say Sydney Rice opens up the field for everyone else big time on offense…We aren’t in that much turmoil at corner…Browner is very promising and Thurmond III is on the come up. If I had to choose between a new corner and Rice I’m going with Sydney, I here you Vasilii that we are deeper at WR than CB but wouldn’t want to pass on a WR of that Caliber if available. Still would be stoked with Joseph in FA but anyone else that would realistically sign with Seattle wouldn’t be as valuable in comparison.
"I was 11 or 12 and Quinton was like 30. He was the only dude on the Pop Warner team who had a full mustache and a beard. And he used to drive to Pop Warner games. You're not supposed to be doing that. It was crazy." -Marshawn Lynch
Fans will generally opt for offensive skill players because they're the most exciting
But their impact is smaller, and we don’t even have a QB to use an elite WR. Not that there’s anything wrong with putting the WR in place before you get a QB, but what a waste of talent it would be this year (unless we get Palmer, the only prospective QB thrown about who could utilize Rice)
by Thomas Beekers on Jul 23, 2011 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions
But if I had to choose between Joseph and Rice, I'd go with Joseph, hands down.
Sure, the roster has some talent and potential, but add a #1 guy like Jonathan Josepth and the entire unit suddenly moves up a notch in capability.
The impact of adding Rice to the offense, everything else being equal, would likely be less. And a total waste if the QB can’t throw the ball more than 15 yards down the field.
That I agree with. Joseph would be an awesome addition.
But I also think he will end up elsewhere.
by Harvey Manfrengenson on Jul 23, 2011 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree only if its Joseph though...
If its anyone else but Joseph I don’t think its worth passing up on Rice, I see the need at CB but after Joseph there isn’t a F.A. corner I think would have more impact regardless of our QB situation or more so more promising as a long term starter than Thurmond or Browner. Palmer the only QB that could throw to Rice? I don’t know about that one, He makes your whole offense better just by attracting attention its not all about how many crazy catches he makes. I see a lot of value in that and CB is my favorite position in football.
"I was 11 or 12 and Quinton was like 30. He was the only dude on the Pop Warner team who had a full mustache and a beard. And he used to drive to Pop Warner games. You're not supposed to be doing that. It was crazy." -Marshawn Lynch
The defensive line is by far our biggest need
I’d certainly skip out on Rice for Mebane or Cofield.
Browner is unproven. Don’t rely on CFL products until they’ve proven themselves. A lot of people just seem to get star-struck about him. I’ve never seen him. Have you? Regardless, he’ll have to have a transitional period, especially with no off-season. The only reliable future corner we have on our roster that has proven starter potential is Thurmond, I’m getting a little tired of people bringing up Browner. He’s a non-argument in the need to pick up a CB1.
Palmer the only QB that could throw to Rice? I don’t know about that one, He makes your whole offense better just by attracting attention its not all about how many crazy catches he makes.
Palmer is the only one proven to be able to utilize speedy WRs well from our popularly-named candidate list. Whitehurst and Jackson can both throw deep, but Jackson didn’t always work well with Rice (far from it), and neither of them are proven deep readers, especially not behind a dubious line. Hasselbeck’s days of being able to utilize speedy WRs are long since over.
It doesn’t matter if your WR can make crazy catches if your QB can’t throw them. The way defenses stacked the box against Hasselbeck proved as much. Rice is better than Butler, but like Butler he would not play up to his full potential on such an offense.
by Thomas Beekers on Jul 23, 2011 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions
i agree in the sense that a guy like Joseph does not need anyone else in order to be good
Whereas Rice does, and that kind of player is not currently on the roster. I would not always agree that a good CB makes more of an impact than a good WR. Randy Moss in his first year with the Pats for example did more for his team than any CB ever could. Obviously he had a great QB and that was one of the best offenses of all time, but an elite WR can have an enormous impact
I shouldn't describe Holmes as just a speed guy tho
If anything, his size and leaping ability is a bigger factor for his skills than his speed. Don’t overrate him though. With his injury concerns, he’s not a tier-one receiver.
by Thomas Beekers on Jul 23, 2011 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Sorry, Rice
I was listening to Cosell on Holmes and Rice. He seemed to feel Holmes was significantly better than Rice, with an Isaac Bruce-level of potential in the right spot. I can’t say I’ve ever seen it like that but I bow to the master on that one.
by Thomas Beekers on Jul 23, 2011 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually I've seen Browner play twice...one time at OSU and at one BC Lions game...
He’s good and though unproven in the NFL i think he will suprise you. I don’t see how he can be a non-arguement when he hasn’t even gotten a shot yet. Its not about the crazy catches its about attracting attention from DB’s to open up the field for other players on O, Its all about getting the best players available to fill the positions we are most dire in need of period whether DL CB whatever. Jackson is not a throwing QB and if we do go with Charlie I think he could connect with Rice with the deep ball. Farve had one of his best years ever late in his career with the Vikings and who was he throwing too the most?
"I was 11 or 12 and Quinton was like 30. He was the only dude on the Pop Warner team who had a full mustache and a beard. And he used to drive to Pop Warner games. You're not supposed to be doing that. It was crazy." -Marshawn Lynch
Why would I want this guy on my team???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TwXBl56UQs doesn’t seem to matter who is throwing to him he makes the catches…but I like Joseph too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbYfim8XGlM anyway to get both???
"I was 11 or 12 and Quinton was like 30. He was the only dude on the Pop Warner team who had a full mustache and a beard. And he used to drive to Pop Warner games. You're not supposed to be doing that. It was crazy." -Marshawn Lynch
It's interesting that we're saying Hass can't use Rice but Favre is underthrowing a TON of those huge completions.
Rice is just adjusting to the ball like a champ.
Damn
Rice is one of those receivers that is just open no matter what. You can see why he gets hurt sometimes, he won’t hesitate to sacrifice his body to make a catch. That athleticism across from Williams size/power combination would be tough to defend. Somebody has a mismatch.
thats what i'm saying...
you have to pay attention to them both and they both would cause insane mismatch issues for opposing DBs…
"I was 11 or 12 and Quinton was like 30. He was the only dude on the Pop Warner team who had a full mustache and a beard. And he used to drive to Pop Warner games. You're not supposed to be doing that. It was crazy." -Marshawn Lynch
He's a non-argument exactly because he hasn't shown anything yet
If you want to argue our need is low at CB you point to players who have proven themselves either in the NFL (like Thurmond) or in college to an exceptionally high degree (a 1st-round pick). Browner is neither. How many CFL defenders have successfully made the leap to the NFL the past decade? Don’t get me wrong, I like his profile, but I like it for our big nickel guy, not for our starting corner. Right now he’s just another talent on a roster that lacks elite starters. At many positions. CB just happens to be an important one.
You can’t attract attention from the DB when the DB knows the QB isn’t capable of connecting with you with any kind of consistency. Hasn’t Hasselbeck proven that expansively over the past few years?
Jackson’s arm is if anything better than Charlie. There’s not that much different in their arm and reading ability to utilize WR talent.
by Thomas Beekers on Jul 23, 2011 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions
God I wish I had footage to watch on Browner tho
Not college, CFL. But y’know. CFL.
by Thomas Beekers on Jul 23, 2011 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Only Wake has made a major impact which is true...
The catches Rice makes when healthy could be thrown by Aunt Jemima and he still would have pulled em down bro. I agree that CB is a more pressing need but I don’t see us getting Ndamdi and feel if Joseph is not there you shouldn’t pass on Rice for a tier 2 corner and wait for a no.1 till next year.
"I was 11 or 12 and Quinton was like 30. He was the only dude on the Pop Warner team who had a full mustache and a beard. And he used to drive to Pop Warner games. You're not supposed to be doing that. It was crazy." -Marshawn Lynch
Rice had one good year dude
You might be overselling him a teeeeeeensy bit.
by Thomas Beekers on Jul 23, 2011 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Not true.
Rice was a major contributor out of the gate. He didn’t harness the consistency until that huge year, but he’s been flashing dominant ability from day one. His issue is health. Dude puts the ball in the zone.
15 and 31 catches with no 100-yard game is not a "major contributor", nor is 12.8 and 9.4 yard per reception
Of course he flashed talent, he’s a talented player.
by Thomas Beekers on Jul 23, 2011 7:22 PM PDT up reply actions
That includes the big year we're talking about
And you define WRs by TDs? Ok.
by Thomas Beekers on Jul 23, 2011 7:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Well he scored 8 that year...
the other 56% of his TD’s came in his non-“big years.” In other words he scored 56% of his TD’s in the 66% of his games that weren’t a part of his breakout season, which backs up what I’m saying, that Rice has been producing all along.
...10 TDs over three years is not an impressive numbers
I really can’t follow your line of argument, sorry.
by Thomas Beekers on Jul 23, 2011 8:37 PM PDT up reply actions
3 years is misleading
32 games= 2 seasons
When a player is scoring 4TD’s a year at ages 21 and 22 and then breaks out massively at age 23, it is meaningful.
But you’re right, rice hasn’t done anything that would lead us to believe he is a good player aside from that one season. I can understand why that would be hard to follow. Ha. Give me a break.
That's funny
But you’re right, rice hasn’t done anything that would lead us to believe he is a good player aside from that one season
I never said that. But good thing to know I’m right about it despite never saying it.
See? I can just post snide remarks rather than arguments too. I’m sure we’ll progress greatly at this rate.
by Thomas Beekers on Jul 23, 2011 9:01 PM PDT up reply actions
So let's pose the question a different way
If Petey and John pursue a number one receiver, and do not pursue a “shut down corner” in free agency, are they making a serious mistake in your opinion?
by Harvey Manfrengenson on Jul 24, 2011 4:56 AM PDT up reply actions
No
Pursuing any young, high-level talent at almost any spot is a good move for us right now.
I’m not too fond of Rice tho’. He will probably be more expensive than he’s worth with injury concerns.
by Thomas Beekers on Jul 24, 2011 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm wondering where you get the idea that great WR's are wasted by lousy QB's.
Not saying you’re wrong, I’m just curious.
Compare Andre Johnson's numbers with Schaub and before Schaub
Compare Fitzgerald’s numbers with Warner and after Warner
by Thomas Beekers on Jul 23, 2011 7:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh Oh Oh I want to play!
See Roddy White’s numbers in 2007 with Joey Harrington/Byron Leftwich/Chris Redman compared to the Matt Ryan Years, they’re almost identical. See Derrick Mason’s 103 catch season with Kyle Boller compared to the Joe Flacco years.
Sometimes wideouts can make a name for themselves as well.
Also, after comparing Andre's pre and post Schaub years
Andre Johnson had a fantastic 103 catch/1147 yds in 2006 with David Carr. The following year was the first year with Matt Schaub in which he only played 9 games.
Sure, I didn't say otherwise
Like I mentioned in an earlier article, the two positions are intertwined, but QB has more impact on WR than vice versa. A WR can do well with a lousy QB for several reasons. He can be the only target realistically available. He can mesh with that QB or that system particularly well. He can never really lift the offense unaided, though, not to the extent a QB can, maybe not even to the extent an RB can.
by Thomas Beekers on Jul 23, 2011 9:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Note how I never used to term "wasted", just "proven skillset to properly utilize a speedy WR"
I feel people might ready things into my comments that aren’t really there
by Thomas Beekers on Jul 23, 2011 9:29 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm probably not reading enough into your comments to be truthful
I just saw your post about comparing Larry and Andre’s number pre and post qbs and thought i would chime in.
Back on topic though. If you give a lousy quarterback lousy weapons your offense will be lousy. On the other hand, if you give a lousy quarterback great weapons you can have a very good offense. For instance the 2009 and 2010 Jets.
Even though the Hawks may or may not have a legit quarterback this year doesn’t mean we cant be successful with quality surrounding talent.
and Aunt jemima has made good syrup her whole life...
you may be undermining her passing ability vastly.
"I was 11 or 12 and Quinton was like 30. He was the only dude on the Pop Warner team who had a full mustache and a beard. And he used to drive to Pop Warner games. You're not supposed to be doing that. It was crazy." -Marshawn Lynch
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