Seahawks Offensive Line: Oh God, We're All Going to Die
The Seahawks got about as thorough a trashing as you can get in the preseason. Preseason is just preseason, and I couldn't care less about the final score, or about the fact that Tarvaris Jackson led a scoring drive by throwing to Sidney Rice and Mike Williams over the Denver Broncos 2nd team defense. I do care about how hopelessly outmatched the Seahawks looked, particularly in one of the most important areas of the NFL: pass rush. Our defense didn't get much except from stunts until Tim Tebow came in, and the offense was giving it up in spades, albeit to the likes of Von Miller and Elvis Dumervil. As a side note, not having seen much Tebow last year, I'm kind of surprised by how little progress he's made, he still has no pocket presence and an ugly throwing motion, this guy barely plays at a backup level.
Protection and QB play is often brought down to an either-or question where either one is to blame, in this case an obvious excuse for Tarvaris' play comes from horrible offensive line play. That's certainly valid to an extent but it's a simplification, there's always an interplay between the line and the quarterback (though it's worth noting it doesn't look like Tarvaris is making the protection calls on this line, it looks like Max Unger is, with help from Robert Gallery). In fact, an obvious answer is available for us after this game: it's not either-or, it's both. Both our offensive line and quarterback are playing well below the NFL level. Tarvaris missing wide-open reads and lack of pocket presence doesn't help the offensive line anymore than getting beaten up play after play helps Tarvaris establish a rhythm.
Going back over the first half with a fine-tooth comb, here's a bunch of plays that stood out:
2-10-SEA 25 (12:28) (Shotgun) T.Jackson pass incomplete short right to Z.Miller [V.Miller].
Both Tyler Polumbus and Robert Gallery attempt to cutblock on Elvis Dumervil and Von Miller. There's no pressure otherwise but the two sandwich Tarvaris. The commentator notes "everybody covered", which is patently incorrect, Obomanu is open for an inside throw on the LoS though he would not have likely taken it anywhere, but Tarvaris is staring him down while to his right Zach Miller is running a drag route with no one on him, constantly looking back for the pass that never comes. In fact, the commentators were prone to go "no one open" even when you could tell from the TV broadcast that people were, in fact, open. The incomplete is thrown into the dirt about five yards away from Zach, not sure how that wasn't grounding. It's also a jump-pass.
3-10-SEA 25 (12:22) (Shotgun) T.Jackson pass incomplete short right [R.Ayers].
Zach Miller is lined up behind and outside of Polumbus, and picks up his guy (Dumervil) surprisingly well. Polumbus reacts late to linebacker DJ Williams and is in a bad position to stop him, but at least delays him. Gallery double-teams Unger's guy before almost changing his mind to help out Polumbus, he really doesn't do much. It doesn't really matter since on the right side, James Carpenter does a little half-step backwards, apparently expecting Miller to come straight at him, and Miller uses the allowed space to run around him for a near-sack.
1-10-SEA 41 (10:06) T.Jackson pass incomplete short left to J.Forsett (A.Goodman).
Broncos threaten the blitz but rush four with Von Miller dropping back in sorta-coverage on Zach Miller. Tarvaris telegraphs his read to Force who is immediately double-covered, while Sidney Rice is running an out with single-coverage and Mike William is freed up on a go route, with no one on him. Throw it that way and this play is big, but T-Jax never looks that way. Regardless, the protection is really good. Polumbus goes up one-on-one with Dumervil. The Broncos shift their line pre-snap and end up doing a little switch play with Bunkley and Ayers. Unger, John Moffitt and Carpenter respond sharply, Carpenter handing off Ayers to the Moffitt-and-Unger double-team and picking up Bunkley well on-one-on. Gallery is getting bulled back a bit but Tarvaris has time.
3-4-DEN 42 (8:03) (Shotgun) T.Jackson pass incomplete short right to L.Washington [J.Mays].
Broncos shifted to a 4-3 under, with our strongside being on the offensive. Zach Miller picks up Dumervil on his own (he looked pretty good in pass protection all game), but this leaves Polumbus next to him with no one to block. Meanwhile, as the Broncos have three men on our weakside every blocker there is occupied. Miller and Ayers in particular occupy Carpenter and Moffit, and while they do well on their individual assignments this play allows the middle linebacker to come in unblocked at the quarterback, forcing the errant pass. This play highlights the lack of communication in our line well, which is an expected problem with a brand-new line.
2-9-SEA 47 (5:31) T.Jackson pass short middle to L.Washington to DEN 45 for 8 yards (K.Vickerson).
This one I'm just taking out to note two things: yes, we threw some nasty, nasty cutblocks, particularly one by Gallery on this play. But more noteworthy was Paul McQuistan coming in for the RG spot, and staying in for the rest of the drive. McQuistan got a few reps as swing depth at RG and RT, it's good to see the FO test our depth. Breno Giacomini also played some RT with the 1sts later in the 2nd quarter.
2-14-DEN 44 (3:57) L.Washington left end to DEN 34 for 10 yards (W.Woodyard).
This one is noticeable for both Gallery and McQuistan pulling out and blocking fairly well in space, and BMW doing really well blocking Goodman to free up space for Washington. Woodyard makes the tackle after Gallery has to let him go rather than hold, but he wouldn't have made the tackle but for Dawkins stopping Washington in his tracks.
1-10-SEA 20 (12:27) T.Jackson sacked at SEA 14 for -6 yards (sack split by W.Woodyard and E.Dumervil).
McQuistan is in at RT, with Moffitt next to him. Dumervil runs past him and McQuistan doesn't look his way (it's not his assignment) instead picking up Kevin Vickerson. Gallery is pulling from left to right behind the line and Leon Washington makes an appearance as well but both hesitate to touch Dumervil. Tarvaris flees the pocket the moment he hears Dumervil's footsteps. Woodyard is coming in off a delayed blitz from the offensive right, and McQuistan looks to pick him up after passing on Vickerson but never properly gets his hands on him. Dumervil and Woodyard wrap it up together.
McCoy, Washington and Miller stayed back to block. Rice and BMW are both covered (according to the commentators, but I'll buy it this time), so Tarvaris simply didn't have a passing option. He tries to scramble but there's too many Bronco and Seahawk bodies around him.
2-10-SEA 20 (8:46) T.Jackson sacked at SEA 15 for -5 yards (V.Miller).
Carpenter is back in after being subbed by McQuistan for a while. The first thing he does in pass pro is step back while going complete upright and let Von Miller get in his face. He never gets his hands on Miller to move him to the outside as he should when backpedalling like that. Bad, bad technique.
3-15-SEA 15 (8:11) (Shotgun) T.Jackson pass short left to B.Obomanu to SEA 15 for no gain (R.Ayers).
Jackson takes the snap and immediately stares at Obomanu. At least three Broncos read the pass before it happens, and Obomanu barely has a shot to make it to the line of scrimmage. Rice threw a nice cut block on one of the Broncos, but that doesn't really matter when there's a half dozen more incoming.
1-10-SEA 20 (6:22) T.Jackson pass short right to M.Williams to SEA 26 for 6 yards
McQuistan is playing RG, Giacomini RT. Good blocking all around, and a well-timed block by Forsett on the free rusher Dumervil buys Jackson enough time to complete the pass to Williams.
2-4-SEA 26 (5:49) T.Jackson pass incomplete short right to S.Rice (C.Vaughn).
A bootleg. Tarvaris doesn't look good throwing in the run yet the bootleg looks like a better option than the 3/5-step drop plant-and-throws we've been calling. But it doesn't work too well when Unger and Gallery ineffectually flail at Dumervil and let him run in free.
3-4-SEA 26 (5:43) (Shotgun) T.Jackson sacked at SEA 19 for -7 yards (E.Dumervil).
Speaking of Dumervil, he runs a little stunt inside here. Unger tries to pick him up but is bulled back even with Washington trying to help him out. Joe Mays is right behind him after beating the hell out of Polumbus. Rice is wide open but Jackson has that deer in the headlights look. Get used to it.
A few observations:
Polumbus/Unger not the worst: if you'd put the line Polumbus-Gallery-Unger-Moffitt-Carpenter in front of me a month ago, I would've picked Polumbus and Unger as the biggest concerns. They really weren't. Carpenter is kind of the fall guy for this game but with good reason. He has looked underwhelming right from the first week of preseason and that didn't change this game. Gallery continues to be a problem in pass protection, though he didn't stand out as much this game as the last.
Replacing Polumbus with Okung is not the answer for this offensive line's woes, but it will make a big difference. While Polumbus wasn't the worst, he still wasn't very good, and the gap between him and Okung is huge. The return of Okung should allow much more flexibility in scheming extra protection to the weaker right (the TE lined up next to Polumbus quite a lot), and designing plays to exploit the stronger left (assuming Gallery picks up his game).
Interior line isn't holding the point: While you may have noted an absence of the interior line on blown blocks, they're not exactly getting passing grades here either. As a unit, while Moffitt and Unger were probably our best offensive linemen, they weren't getting a lot of push, and there often wasn't a pocket for Tarvaris to step in to as the interior was bulled back. However, when there was a pocket, Tarvaris often wouldn't step into it. If you want a positive, that can be ascribed to lack of playing time together. If you want a negative, it could be Tarvaris' pocket presence and movement is awful.
Carpenter is not moving to guard: I've been seeing some speculation on this, but it's not happening. That's not to say it can never happen, but Carpenter's problems aren't due to the position he's playing and a switch would be detrimental to his current development, not a solution. It is however possible that if he continues this way he'll be moved in favor of Polumbus or McQuistan (a veteran who played under Cable in Oakland, if sparingly), but our line would otherwise remain intact, which would kick him to the bench.
Tarvaris looks bad: Now that the 3rd game of the pre-season is behind us, it's fair to say we're not seeing much of Tarvaris Jackson's system experience advantage, and he looks like he'll actively compete for worst QB in the NFL. I don't know if Whitehurst is much better, but Tarvaris' lack of quality play is disappointing, if not surprising to those of us who went back to watch footage of him playing behind the porous Vikings O-line in 2010. That doesn't mean I'm changing my opinion that I expect Tarvaris to start week 1, having him in with the 1s to score against the Broncos 2nd team probably helped quiet the critics a bit, and PC is sticking with his plan. Tarvaris' system experience should ideally become more noticeable as the team has more experience together, and with the offensive gameplan becoming more complex.
This line still needs time: Trite, isn't it? But it's true, and it's the song and dance we'll be doing for at least half a season. Despite the bad performance the talent is still there. The rotating in of McQuistan and Giacomini shows the coaches aren't too pleased about our right side either. We might see some personnel changes, but shaking things up too much at this point just isn't the smart thing to do, not with this much unproven talent on the line. There's a lot of ugly growing pains incoming, but they're unavoidable.
Despite my panic-mongering headline (which wasn't intended to be taken seriously), we're still a ways away from drawing definitive conclusions on this offensive line. The addition of multiple rookies and a new coach on a short off-season means we should've expected a lot of ugliness. I don't think many of us expected it to get this ugly, but it's not shocking that it does. Now Cable needs to show he truly is a good Oline-coach, as is his reputation, and steadily improve this offensive line's play from week 1 onwards. We can at least say there's lots of room to grow.
131 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
I think Pete and John
foresaw the difficulties that the OL would have and knew EXACTLY what they were doing in not drafting a QB this year.
by GoSeaHox on Aug 29, 2011 8:17 AM PDT reply actions 3 recs
I'm in strong agreement with you on all this.
Tarvaris is contributing to the pass protection issues. Doesn’t anticipate needing to get to an outlet receiver very well. Some of the problems he exhibits are problems that very possibly just won’t surface in circumstances where pass pro is better, so the whole outlook remains uncertain, still, somewhat. But it’s pretty discouraging even while still expecting some modest improvement in the gameplanned regular season with a wee bit more reps under their collective belt.
Head of catering.
Honestly, I'm seeing like exactly the opposite.
Meaning, I still think TJ has been crap but in a totally different way. On any kind of rush, he seems to check down immediately to his hot reads and not look at anybody else. Completing 3 yard passes is ultimately not going to stop guys from blitzing you. Finding Rice or BMW in single coverage, OTOH, is. This could easily be because he’s listening to PC too much in practice – I remember Hasselbeck having the exact same issue when he came over and Holmgren screamed at him every time he took a chance in practice and it finally took a few weeks of him sitting down and watching a (less talented) veteran handle the team in game situations to get him to understand exactly which risks he should be taking. Still, just because that situation worked out doesn’t mean we should expect this one to as well. The Hasselbeck situation always struck me as something of a fluke – the guy literally went from pariah to savior in the course of about 2 months.
Anyway, I guess the best(?) news is that Whitehurst does look kind of like a game-handling type QB of the variety PC wanted, and the QBs’ skillsets are close enough that we can expect him to walk in and take over the starting job without having to have too much changed around and/or dumbed down. I think this experience is demonstrating, too, just how accustomed we’d gotten to Hass.
"It's okay to have an open mind, just not so open that your brains fall out." - Carl Sagan (well, a lot of guys)
by Johnny Slick on Aug 29, 2011 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions
I also see the problem of basically forsaking downfield routes.
I don’t think he’s got much choice just yet, though. I think it’s a problem, too, though, I do. I just wanted to raise another problem that I hadn’t yet seen mentioned, which is him not seeming to anticipate needing to hit a hot route sooner.
It sounds strange that not getting to hot routes sooner and throwing to only outlet receivers would simultaneously be problems, but that’s what I see. I think not getting to the outlets sooner is more problematic, and it also leads to the other. The INT off Golden Tate’s hands is an example. I saw the need coming, and Tate was the only one open. The pass was a tiny bit behind Tate. He also should have caught it. But it was thrown at the end of the window and I could see both the window opening and the immediate need to get the ball out, a second earlier.
Head of catering.
by jacobstevens on Aug 29, 2011 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Nice write up, Beekers.
I haven’t watched the game yet (having just got back into town), but I’ll keep an eye on this stuff.
One Terrill down, one Jennings to go...
Follow the llama tail
Not to beat a dead horse
but Carpenter backpedaled so much during that game I thought he was an out of position CB.
Or how about him standing still while the defender got in 3 solid steps
THEN he took his dive step….playing catchup right off the go…
he was standing still waiting for the defender to do something and by the time he recognized it, they were already working past him…
I Bleed Blue and Green
I am most disapointed with Carpenter, he looked lost out there.
Like you said , it looked like he expected his assignment to run straight at him and when they didn’t he couldn’t move.
I don't think people really understand what 'needs time' means
My 2 cents is that two rookies starting next to one another on an o-line is pretty rare, doing it with an abbreviated camp is unheard of, and add to that another person new to the team and you have a recipe for disaster. It’s tough to compare the progress between this line and others because I can’t think of a comparable situation.
Silver linings – if you can point to technique issues (as many are with Carpenter) than you can fix them. Also, Unger seems to have been a concern of many, but really has been good so far.
Pretty much, yeah
It’s not like we were expecting it to look so bad, but we weren’t expecting to be without Okung and when you think about it, it’s understandable, if not necessarily acceptable.
Carpenter worries me less than Gallery, but Gallery might look better once Okung is back.
Formerly Known As Vasilii
by Thomas Beekers on Aug 29, 2011 8:44 AM PDT up reply actions
Has Gallery's issue primarily been one of timing or something more?
I haven’t had a chance to go back to each game and watch him in isolation.
by SmartAssCoug on Aug 29, 2011 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions
He seems very unsure about his assignment, a lot
He has always been a bit slow on pass protection, but that exacerbates the problem.
Formerly Known As Vasilii
by Thomas Beekers on Aug 29, 2011 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions
I like how he invariably ends up turned around, facing the pocket from the DL perspective,
still vainly trying to block his man.
Head of catering.
by jacobstevens on Aug 29, 2011 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions
A positive for Carpenter
He is slow, but his feet are not. I think it is a mental issue having to do with the pure speed of the game. He will get it.
I think a look at San Fran from last year is instructive here. they started two talented rookies, and paid a heavy price for it.
by Harvey Manfrengenson on Aug 29, 2011 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Yip
His lack of speed some more of a mental thing, and his getting physically dominated more of a technique thing. That’s bad, but it’s better than if he’s actually slow and weak.
Formerly Known As Vasilii
by Thomas Beekers on Aug 29, 2011 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ok, but how about a little improvement week to week,
of coarse this could just be a diversionary tactic so nobody really knows how GOOD they are.
Please use the subject line for further comments.
Otherwise feel the wrath of the side mods.
"Beware challenger
Thou hath angered Hawku fan
COME AT ME THOU FOOL"
The usual penance for the subject-line infraction is to post a tasteful boob shot.
Time permitting, Lawrie, time permitting.
If you're not sure if there's a quarterback controversy, there is one.
I had the impression the thin air was also taxing him.
He hasn’t looked to me to be in the best condition to play a full 60. I bet he was tired & breathing heavy on the 1st drive in that air.
Definitely it needs time.
We hoped for the growing pains not to be this bad, or to not produce visual evidence of progress after preseason game 3, but aside from maybe the severity it’s mostly what we expected.
Recognizing it needs more time doesn’t alleviate the concern that 1-4 may be an optimistic view of the regular season til the bye, though. I expect some manufactured protection, and hope for improvement by October — and ultimately I never really expected any real contention this year — but it’s just deflating to think the entire season might choke from the get-go and we can already see the symptoms.
Head of catering.
by jacobstevens on Aug 29, 2011 8:59 AM PDT up reply actions
Not to answer my own question, but...
Closest comparison I can come up with is the Colts, who have Costonzo (rookie) and McClendon (functionally a rookie since he has never really played in a game) starting on the left side. They gave up 4 sacks of their own last week, and Jeff Saturday and Dallas Clark are historically two of the best to ever play their positions so they’ve got a little more to work with than us. I think patience is the best plan of attack for now.
Manning in the game would make the Colts line look considerably better
by SmartAssCoug on Aug 29, 2011 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, yeah, but no other team has a Manning
But there is a point there, since Painter still threw for 170 yards and 2 tds
by B.B.Finnegan on Aug 29, 2011 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Houston Texans have one...
Danieal Manning.
by SGT Lenny on Aug 29, 2011 11:06 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Giants have another
Manning of the -ham variety
by Stay Off the Flowers on Aug 29, 2011 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Where is the nasty?
I want the nasty that I was promised. I need some pancakes to wash it down too.
Not a lot of pancakes
Lots of gunning for the knees.
Formerly Known As Vasilii
by Thomas Beekers on Aug 29, 2011 8:43 AM PDT up reply actions
we got the tripping in game 1 I believe
Ala Gallery if I remember right. I know it was flagged.
I'll say it again; BamKam will surprise this year.
by S_o_Smith on Aug 29, 2011 10:18 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Is there a consensus on what a good time frame for an individual OL's development is?
Obviously, 2 weeks + 3 preseason games ain’t it. And probably it’s not even one season, and I’m sure it’s technically different for every player. Just curious if any the more educated scouters on the site have a general rule of thumb.
It varies
But it doesn’t matter if a player looks bad his entire rookie year as long as he shows growth and promise. True for any position. Just look at the 49er Olinemen, who had pretty abysmal rookie year when they started both Iupati and Davis in one line. Iupati looks like the real deal, Davis is still unsure.
Someone like Okung hit the ground running and mauled Julius Peppers. You can’t expect that from every offensive lineman, certainly not from a late 1st and a 3rd. So if Carpenter and Moffitt still have glaring weaknesses in their game by the end of the season, that’s really no big problem, as long as they showed improvement, individually and as a line as a whole. Don’t expect early results, not from a rookie who switched positions and a 3rd rounder.
Formerly Known As Vasilii
by Thomas Beekers on Aug 29, 2011 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Unger looked really bad his first year and the beginning of his second
But he’s looked decent this year, nowhere as bad as before. I wasn’t sure he should even be in the NFL before.
by B.B.Finnegan on Aug 29, 2011 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions
I feel a good deal less concerned about him by this point than I did before camp,
but I’m still concerned and he had some poor moments in Denver. He’ll get pushed back with some regularity.
Head of catering.
by jacobstevens on Aug 29, 2011 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions
He isn't great, but he's not a liability, and that's a pleasant surprise
Formerly Known As Vasilii
by Thomas Beekers on Aug 29, 2011 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions
Still something of a liability, but not one relative to the other guys around him.
But yeah, that’s a pleasant surprise. To the extent that experience together may well be the only main liability across the line. By the time they gel things could be above average. Although I wonder if that will include McQuistan or Fanaika by year’s end instead of Gallery.
Head of catering.
by jacobstevens on Aug 29, 2011 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions
Funny how two guys with diffferent issues can look the same
Unger is getting pushed back, he is simply not stout enough. Carpenter is giving up ground he does not have to, and Miller used his own momentum against him. Both end up in the quarterback’s lap.
by Harvey Manfrengenson on Aug 29, 2011 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions
Well Unger looks like a TE playing Center.
He looks like a receiving TE playing Center. Carpenter has the capability & has displayed it, he’s just a rookie in a very adverse circumstance. Unger is still wet behind the ears, too, and could be quite a bit better by season’s end.
Head of catering.
by jacobstevens on Aug 29, 2011 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions
I think my concerns that Unger is too tall to play center are legitimate
by Harvey Manfrengenson on Aug 29, 2011 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions
Birk, Pouncey and Mack
are all good centers at similar height to Unger. Not sure height is his biggest issue.
That
Seahawk fan is one fine piece of ACE! I know from experience. (She looks like a young Ashley Judd)
No,
no you don’t.
I don't have a gun, but if I did, I would shoot a baby deer in the mouth and feel nothing. Louis CK
But, a guy I know, him and her, GOT IT ON!
(recovery)
Good, great, grand, wonderful.
NO YELLING ON THE BUS!
by Dizzy Saturn on Aug 29, 2011 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions
Just to sum up my in depth analysis of the game
Doug Baldwin should make this team,
We should do well playing against teams without a first string defense or a pass rush.
???
Profit
O-line Roster Mistakes
1. Let it be written that drafting Carpenter was a huge mistake. Yes, there is time for him to turn it around but it appears that he simply has bad fundamentals. Something that can be fixed but can take many years. Gabe Carimi meanwhile… http://www.rantsports.com/chicago-bears/2011/08/24/gabe-carimi-aka-chicago-bear-jew/
2. I was hoping we would keep Spencer around this year. The best lineman of last year and a known quantity.
Carimi has looked pretty good
But it’s way too early to tell if drafting Carpenter over him was a mistake.
Formerly Known As Vasilii
by Thomas Beekers on Aug 29, 2011 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions
Agreed. Time will tell
but from the second he was drafted to right now I have had a bad feeling about the pick. Cable must have seen something in him but I am just seeing an overweight brute with no technique. I would have LOVED to see two Wisconsin teammates on the right side (Carimi/Moffit). Smart players, quick learners with sound technique to work with and four years of synergy to build on.
Especially if Moffit was already on their radar...
Why not go for the already familiar tandem?
This pick at the time almost had me wonder what would stop Goodell from going to the podium and just picking who he wanted the teams to have?
Now obviously I would guess that the reps from said team would be flying up on to the stage in a fit, if a name other than ‘their guy’ was called, but for a second there I could only explain that pick as a conspiracy being afoot.
by Dizzy Saturn on Aug 29, 2011 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions
I remember Nick Saban shaking his head
But that guy is a dick….
Saban
was STUNNED that Carpenter was taken that high, STUNNED. That tells you all you need to know.
surprisingly, that doesn't tell me anything...
This guy doesn’t know anything about what works in the NFL.
by goatweed on Aug 29, 2011 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sure he does.
He spent 5 years as an assistent in the NFL, 2 years as a head coach, is part of the Belichick coaching tree and still has a close relationship with him and has been a pipeline for NFL talent in his time as a college head coach.
Solid NFL talent guy at that...
I guess he did draft Ronnie Brown at No. 2 overall. He also strikes me as a very honest and stand-up guy.
You can do worse than him as an NFL talent evaluator, but I wouldn’t take his word over PC.
Shocked! Please.
So you're going to ignore his opinion on a player he coached every day for two years
because he lied about taking the Bama job?
Nope, just based on his 2 draft classes in NFL
Yes, he is a Liar. I would have the same sentiments about PC if he pulled a Saban.
There's a reason coaches always lie about that stuff. They are kind of forced to.
If you're not sure if there's a quarterback controversy, there is one.
Sure they lie, but I think you are insulting every coach..
.. by lumping them in with Saban. He will make a great politician. I don’t hate the guy, far from it. I just don’t trust his judgement.
Carimi ...
I was pretty excited to see Carimi fall to SEA only to see them pass him up. Seen most of Carimi’s games and seen him live, and thought he was a no brainer when he fell to SEA (big, quick, wingspan, mauler), but I really knew nothing of Carpenter.
My line was Okung-Gallery-Spencer-Unger?-Carimi. Didn’t see Moffit coming at all.
Time will tell.
Moffet made Carimi look good..
Moffet bailed Carimi out of trouble time and time again. I think this issue with the oline is all timing. When Carpenter got beat he was slow off the ball. The whole right side was. You can really see it when you slow the tape down. The line doesnt come off the ball at the same time at all. This line just needs more time to gel.
Yip, it's pretty noticeable
Been banging the drum on Carpenter’s slow reaction time in particular, including during the game. Must be even more obvious if you slow it down.
Most of Carpenter’s flaws are eminently coachable. There’s some question marks about fitness and quickness but we’ll see if they remain dealbreakers after he fixes other flaws.
Formerly Known As Vasilii
by Thomas Beekers on Aug 29, 2011 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't want to be this big Carpenter detractor but are his flaws really eminently coachable?
I have to think if you can drastically improve someone’s technique and quickness off the line the Rams would still be starting Alex Barron. Obviously the guy isn’t an UDFA that just doesn’t have the ability to play in the NFL, but lots of guys never turn ability into anything.
I’m not saying Carpenter is a bust before he starts a game, or that we should change our expectations for what he can grow into, I’m just a little surprised at the heaps of confidence some people have in him after he’s looked abjectly terrible so far.
I don't have heaps of confidence, I just don't think you can conclude a ton from these pre-season games
Other than that he will have significant growing pains.
Is it possible he’ll always be too slow and get beat on bad technique? Sure. But those facets of the game are coachable. That doesn’t they’re coachable on everyone, it just means they’re coachable. Different players are malleable to different extents. We just don’t know for Carpenter.
Formerly Known As Vasilii
by Thomas Beekers on Aug 29, 2011 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions
The left side also has timing issues..
The whole line is just off.. I think it should also be noted that Moffet and Carpenter both played the left side in college. Now they are moved to right side at the highest level with no training camp.. Carpenter might be a bust (I doubt it) but it is way to early to say it. Carpenter was a very smooth player as a LT in college. He rarely got beat but needed to work on his hand punch and placement. What I see is a kid out there thinking way to much. Well I guess that could be said about the intire line. They all need time to season.
by Redzone59 on Aug 29, 2011 11:05 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
That's what happens when you throw together a line, you get communication and timing problems
It’s a bland truism, but it’s true
Formerly Known As Vasilii
by Thomas Beekers on Aug 29, 2011 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions
Agreed..Also look at
The way carpenter sets up.. He looks like he setting up to play LT. His right foot is to far forward and sometimes in front of his left foot..he is losing a step right there.. I could go on but I think its kicking a dead horse.. Luke WE have all said, he needs time at playing RT.
by Redzone59 on Aug 29, 2011 1:31 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I think the Badgers line was just good & made each other look good.
The coaching made them look good. Carimi was rightfully the better prospect. Having a good guard beside him can mask some potential flaws. And vice versa. I dunno if those flaws are there and were masked, but both of their strengths — and case for themselves as a prospect — were pretty much made upon their own skills and capabilities and not their teammates’.
Head of catering.
by jacobstevens on Aug 29, 2011 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Is he still in college? What's his name?
Head of catering.
by jacobstevens on Aug 29, 2011 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions
He had a very low opinion of Carimi
Said he wasn’t athletic enough to play OT, may not cut it as an OG.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Aug 29, 2011 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Anyone else see Carpenter as Gallery redux?
First round tackle bust, moved to guard and regains much of his value. Once Gallery leaves, perhaps Carpenter will kick to the inside where he can use his strength and cover up his lack of lateral speed? I don’t believe this was ever ‘the plan’, because we would then need to go searching for another tackle rather than just a guard, but I could see it happening.
We're comparing James Carpenter, right tackle, late-1st round, considered by many to be a reach to Robert Gallery, 2nd pick, LT, "One of the greatest tackles to come into the draft"
And we’re doing it after 3 preseason games?
follow @casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on Aug 29, 2011 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not to mention the whole T to G thing seems to have no solid basis in his play
It’s just a cliche line you kick around about tackles, if they fail they can always move inside.
Formerly Known As Vasilii
by Thomas Beekers on Aug 29, 2011 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions
I also wonder, re:Carpenter, how much did his play suffer by fatigue?
Especially after the shortened off season, he has not looked very well conditioned in any of these games. Add that to the altitude, which I don’t believe he has experienced before, perhaps this especially bad showing can be largely corrected as he gets more and more into NFL level shape.
Carpenter college tape
He kinda seems to play in the droopy way that makes it look like he’s tired, maybe he is?
He did indeed report out of shape, reportedly
But note he was rotated out a lot. So was Moffitt. Both aren’t in NFL shape, I’d wager.
Formerly Known As Vasilii
by Thomas Beekers on Aug 29, 2011 9:18 AM PDT up reply actions
They will be playing 6 more games in NFL (counting preseason action as 2 games)
Hope they get in shape quick.
Another truism:
‘NFL players that show up to camp in shape aren’t even in NFL shape’. If Carp showed up a little doughy, he’d have that much more of a hurdle (in addition to the shortened camp and being a rookie).
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Aug 29, 2011 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Tebow didn't look good?
I mean, yeah, his mechanics are bad, he doesn’t have any pocket presence, and his accuracy isn’t all that good, but dude, you’re missing his INTANGIBLES! You know, those stats for which there are no stats. THOSE are off the chart, immeasurable! I mean literally, you just can’t measure them, because they don’t actually exist with any physical sort of manifestation. But he’s GOT them!! Which is why he is by far the best QB in the entire NFL, only none of the so-called experts recognize it because they can’t get past his lack of any other starting QB attribute. If the entire NFL wasn’t obsessed with QB’s that could throw well, you’d see Tebow being right up there with Manning and Brady. He’s a WINNER! And you can’t coach that!!
by Highwatermark on Aug 29, 2011 9:15 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
LEAVE TIM TEBOW ALOOOONE!!!!!
by Stay Off the Flowers on Aug 29, 2011 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Actually, I thought Tebow looked better. I see some progress in him.
Head of catering.
by jacobstevens on Aug 29, 2011 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions
He's being asked to do something he's not good at, not a huge surprised he hasn't looked very good.
Losing McDaniels might be a death blow to his career.
I still say he'd be perfect for what we're doing.
Head of catering.
by jacobstevens on Aug 29, 2011 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Starting crappy QBs behind a crappy Oline?
Yeah, he’d fit in well.
Formerly Known As Vasilii
by Thomas Beekers on Aug 29, 2011 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
True for a lot of QBs. Coaches like "their guy"s to lead the team.
Probably truer for a project QB. Still, I think somebody’s going to give Tebow a second (or third) chance just based on intangibles alone.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Aug 29, 2011 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions
His delivery is still slow and awful.
Seriously, he looks like a 40-year-old hurler trying to hit 80 on the gun.
If you're not sure if there's a quarterback controversy, there is one.
i couldn't rewatch the game
I usually like to rewatch the game paying attention to some of the details, but this one I just couldn’t do it. This line will not be able to get it together in time and heads will roll just after the bye week. This is not doom and gloom, but if Carroll wants to keep his “Always Compete” mantra he’s going to be forced to do something.
Only way to watch it...
is to turn off the TV volume, pour in a nice glass of Merlot, pop in Pavarotti in your CD player and watch the whole game in slow motion. Seldom weeping while in fetal position.
That mental picture
almost makes up for how lousy that game was.
by 12th_man_syndrome on Aug 29, 2011 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions
I know, right?
Pavarotti wouldn’t fit in the living room, much less the cd player.
If you're not sure if there's a quarterback controversy, there is one.
Are the announcers idiots or is there some other reason for them being this bad?
Both Tyler Polumbus and Robert Gallery attempt to cutblock on Elvis Dumervil and Von Miller. There’s no pressure otherwise but the two sandwich Tarvaris. The commentator notices “everybody covered”, which is patently incorrect, Obomanu is open for an inside throw on the LoS though he would not have likely taken it anywhere, but Tarvaris is staring him down while to his right Zach Miller is running a drag route with no one on him, constantly looking back for the pass that never comes. In fact, the commentators were prone to go “no one open” even when you could tell from the TV broadcast that people were, in fact, open.
Easier to see on the re-run than live
And commentators tend to get stuck in a pre-determined narrative. Not enough time, no one open, etc etc
Formerly Known As Vasilii
by Thomas Beekers on Aug 29, 2011 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Like when both announcers said no one was open,
and Sidney Rice was apparently just saying hello to his mom while running across the middle of the field.
by Dizzy Saturn on Aug 29, 2011 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Heh, that drove me nuts
I was going to screenshot that as Exhibit A for why the preseason homerism announcing is so annoying, even if you’re a fan of the team. Is Warren Moon really not capable of just saying “uh, guys were open and he needs to get rid of the ball” or is he somehow contractually obligated to make excuses for Tarvaris on every single snap?
As bad as the regular season broadcast teams can be at times, at least they come from the networks and aren’t hired by the team. Yeesh.
They're compelled to excuse & remain optimistic.
Tendency to deflect any hints of blame toward Tarvaris before the game even started. Preseason announcing is basically team PR shilling.
Head of catering.
by jacobstevens on Aug 29, 2011 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions
Also struggling to fill time on live TV with something that's related to the action on the field
Their primary job is to keep the viewers interest, not to say things that are truthful or incisive.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Aug 29, 2011 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Gotta protect Tarvaris' fragile ego.
Suggesting he might have not spotted a wide open receiver might make him start wondering if we’re gonna sign Brett Favre.
by central_scrutinizer on Aug 29, 2011 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Thank you, Darrell Bevel, for bringing us TJax
My opinion of your ability to properly assess talent is now in the shitter.
Not that there was anyone better to go get, so grain of salt in my eye
I don't mind T-Jax... so much as how much they paid for him..
I am not even sure why that bothers me, it’s not like it’s my money. It’s not like a discount on him would make my beer cheaper.
$8 million over 2 years isn't that much
Formerly Known As Vasilii
by Thomas Beekers on Aug 29, 2011 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
agreed
Both our QB are being paid backup money. Which is appropriate, since both our QB are backups.
Yup
I see 2011 as a competition for the starting job at backup QB.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Aug 29, 2011 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Wow the Sky is Falling!
There is no such thing as a life without any regrets. However, regrets can become either burdens that interfere with your present happiness and restrict your future, or motivation to move forward.
The line is young, and to be honest, it could be worse. We could be starting Stan Gelbaugh.
Win Forever: Live, Work and Play Like a Champion
No Sonic ,watch it again.
There are some bad times for sure but some good play too. As I was watching again I really started to feel a LOT better.
Watched the rebroadcast last night.
Really did not like Jackson’s expressions and body language on the sideline, especially when Cholly was in the game.
There is no doubt in my mind now that Cholly is the better option regardless of who was playing with who. Cholly has been taking pressure too, but he’s not panicking. He’s stepping up into the pocket, making the throw and taking the hit.
Also, the Obomanu interview. Just love how they have to hold Jackson’s hand and prop up his self esteem.
70% of space is covered by dark matter, the rest by ET.
Well, the pained look on his face
might have been actual pain.
And yes, they do seem to be blowing a lot of wind up Jackson’s skirt.
by Harvey Manfrengenson on Aug 29, 2011 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions
It looked like
petulance on his face. But, impossible to say definitively.
70% of space is covered by dark matter, the rest by ET.
Were some of the comments deleted ?
I don't have a gun, but if I did, I would shoot a baby deer in the mouth and feel nothing. Louis CK
The thread on the looks of the girl in the photo at the top of the thread was removed (not by me) as it was spinning out to nowhere, yeah
Nothing else I don’t think. Why?
Formerly Known As Vasilii
by Thomas Beekers on Aug 29, 2011 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Just curious
It seemed like there were more comments than this.
I don't have a gun, but if I did, I would shoot a baby deer in the mouth and feel nothing. Louis CK
Not here to rub anything in but
there is a post at MHR with game photos showing in detail what this post is trying to explain .
by broncosfaninphilly on Aug 29, 2011 3:58 PM PDT reply actions
That piece was focused on hyping your guys and really doesn't add any information for us at all
And the writer way overblows the importance of Miller lining up off the line one time (it is not repeated during the game) and getting bulled back because Dumervil has a running start. Von Miller and DJ Williams are both closer to factoring in that play.
Formerly Known As Vasilii
by Thomas Beekers on Aug 29, 2011 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Sorry tom didnt mean it that way at all !
Just thought you might find these pictures intresting .
by broncosfaninphilly on Aug 29, 2011 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't usually use photos myself when offering this kind of analysis
Perhaps I should, it is easier to visualize things when you do so. What you really need is a .gif of Carpenter’s baby-step and Von Miller running in a wide arc around him.
I don’t think this was a good test for your pass-rush.
Formerly Known As Vasilii
by Thomas Beekers on Aug 29, 2011 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions

by 
































