The Matt Hasselbeck to Darrell Jackson Touchdown Connection: A Look at Passing Successfully
by Joshua Kasparek on Jan 12, 2012 2:00 PM PST
in Seahawks Player Analysis
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I don't know what it is about this last game against the Cardinals that had me so struck with anger. It wasn't the play calling. This team had it's chances to win and fundamentally should have had some big plays, far before it came down to that final drive. I came out of that game bitter and frustrated and angry because I knew what the bulk of the words would be. 'Tarvaris fails again,' 'Jackson isn't clutch,' and other iterations of QB hate the fan base can muster to explain how it's all one man's fault.
I spent two days wallowing in it a bit, starting a few threads in some other communities on this subject just getting angrier and angrier because everyone just wanted the easy way out. Blaming Tarvaris Jackson is easy, but meanwhile I watched a less-talented QB in John Skelton dissect our defense with a top-flight receiver named Larry Fitzgerald, despite being pretty inaccurate. On the other side, T-Jack is making due with Ben Obamanu and Golden Tate, with slight Deon Butler and Doug Baldwin.
I tried to make this case after Week 2 and maybe that was too early, I'll admit, and though Jackson has shown to have a limited command of certain key skills, he didn't get the help from his receiving corps much. Before Sidney Rice went down, you could see those two had worked together, the way Rice broke off his routes and worked back to the ball on a breakdown was important for Jackson to have in some key spots. With Jackson and Rice having been in the same offense for years together, it created a knowledge where little adjustments and understanding each other created bigger plays than scheming mismatches in meetings. (See the Bengals game, where Rice had 7 catches for 102 yards).
I think this is the point - Tarvaris Jackson shouldn't be and is not the complete scapegoat for the Seahawks offensive issues - and this is something that people need to understand. I'm sure the average fan thinks that passing success is just having receivers that are more athletic than the opposing corners and that's just not true, otherwise Steve Largent wouldn't have caught 100 touchdowns.
This brings me to the unorthodox title of this piece. I chose it because I hate Ben Obamanu, not as a person, but what he reminds me of every time I see him. Matt Hasselbeck and Darrell Jackson were what Sidney Rice and Tarvaris Jackson are, two guys who had a lot of experience in the same offense, who started to click in such a fantastic fashion that Darrell and Matt could hook up against even the best cover men.
A contract dispute caused Tim Ruskell to trade away Jackson for a 4th rounder from the 49ers. The team lost it's true number-one receiver and never replaced him. Matt never clicked with Deion Branch; Nate Burleson never had the crisp moves or route running or natural feel for the ball in the air; and as we've seen, Obamanu's talent is little more than decent depth. I watched this last game in utter disgust because, if the ball isn't right in there, the only guy that's shown to be able to grab tough catches this season has been Doug Baldwin.
Sidney Rice made his share when healthy, but overall, these receivers depend on the QB to do all the work for them. I bring this up because I see these receivers skating, yet again. This sentence has become common in most conversations:
"Our wide receiver corps is really talented, I can't wait to see what a REAL QB can do with them."
Not only is this sentence naive, it denies how great receivers help make quarterbacks better or even in some cases make QB all by themselves. Ask Daunte Culpepper what life was like without Randy Moss.
Ok ok, I hear you. You want solid evidence right? Well just as a warm up, how many of you heard this during the playoff games - "Oh what a great catch!" or saw one of Victor Cruz's many clutch fingertip snags that resulted in long gains or touchdowns all throughout 2011? Now, how about I bring this a little closer to home.
Think back to 2006 - a game against the St. Louis Rams, the Seahawks aren't doing so hot, Shaun's out, Maurice Morris is in, it's near the end of the third quarter and Darrell Jackson splits the safeties for a 42-yard touchdown strike from Matt Hasselbeck.
It's a beautiful throw and and even better catch, but it was even more amazing hearing about it in 2009 when Clare Farnsworth tried to explain what that relationship was like in the context of Matt's struggles, with his then current group featuring T.J. Houshmendzadeh and Deion Branch.
Clare gives this quote from Matt about that throw:
"I never even really saw Darrell, I just knew that when we got this look where the safeties didn't move against this call either coming in or spreading, out that Darrell and I would split them. It was kind of a throw on faith, but knowing he was going to be there."
Now maybe that's a little too obscure and you don't remember it. How about this one?
Redskins and Seahawks - back in the 2005 Divisional Round of the Playoffs. Seattle is actually having a lot of trouble offensively, Shaun's been knocked out and, really, no wideout is shaking loose from this stiff man-coverage.
Well, Darrell beats is man off the snap, but sees that Ryan Clark is playing center field and hasn't moved to his side, so Darrell works his way up along the hashes. Matt throws off play action but has to lead Jackson away from Clark, but, in so doing, he puts a bit of zip on the ball and Jackson is forced to lay out and make the catch.
That situation wasn't about scheme, it was about two players understanding the situation, making a simple adjustment and each pulling their weight to make a great play that really helped turn the game, which, until that point, had been a bit of a disaster.
Darrell and Matt would go on to hook up again for 28 yards when the Redskins' safety jumped inside on the same play action look, leaving Jackson one-on-one vs Shawn Springs. This set up another TD, but the execution is almost exactly the same if you watch both plays. Hasselbeck cuts it loose and Jackson looks for it at about 20 yards down field, if he doesn't look for it, he's going to probably be under thrown, instead, Darrell stops under the ball and makes the catch despite taking a lick from Sean Taylor.
Before I wrap this up, I wanted to pose this question to all those here at Fieldgulls. Darrell Jackson is out for this game against the Redskins and you have to pick another receiver from this squad to make those 9 catches including the tough TD, who's number are you calling?
Sidney Rice? Ben Obamanu? Deon Butler? Golden Tate? Doug Baldwin? Jordan Kent's realized potential...errr I mean...Ricardo Lockette? I think the answer is easily Sidney Rice, but I'd like your thoughts on this.
Before you say it's all the QB and that just simply changing the QB would fix everything, watch these big play highlights from 2002 and 2003, and note how many times it's a big play by both the QB and the receiver. Apologies for the music.
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I think you're being a little hard on Obo.
He didn’t play his best against the Cardinals but he didn’t play that poorly either. The one he really should’ve had was the back shoulder throw, but the others were tough catches. You hope he comes up with at least one of those tough ones, and I think most days he does, but he certainly wasn’t looking to TJack to do all the work. He was wide open 30 yards down field twice and had some decent YAC on the three balls he did catch.
by Nate Dogg on Jan 12, 2012 2:06 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I agree.
If for some reason or another we entered the season with Obomanu as a starter, I would not shit my pants.
I wouldn't be excited, either.
I feel he’d be adequate. The only reason I could think of was offseason injuries.
If obo had a history of spectacular catches maybe
but he does have quite a history of drops.
The chicken or the egg?
Funny how good QBs like Manning (both), Brady, Brees, Rodgers and such keep completing passes to any receiver they throw to, with or without “years of time together.”
Good QBs make receivers better far more than good receivers make bad QBs look good, IMHO.
by Emperor_MA on Jan 12, 2012 2:12 PM PST reply actions 3 recs
Yes, the elite quarterbacks may not need an elite reciever, or a reciever they know real well...
But I think the point of this is that the non-elite quarterbacks do. And T-Jack is certainly not elite. So I think you’re making a counter argument to an argument that wasn’t made here. I don’t think anyone was saying that if Sidney Rice was healthy all season T-Jack would suddenly become Manning, Brady, Brees or Rodgers. The names I’m seeing comparisons with are Culpepper and Hasselbeck.
Is that a reasonable comparison to make? Personally I don’t think T-Jack would ever look that good, but I think it’s fair to say that with a better recieving core he would have put up better numbers this year. I remember a lot of dropped passes and a lot of passes that, while they might have not gone down in the stat sheet as a drop, an elite reciever often makes the play on.
So I think I agree with the idea that T-Jack gets an unfair amount of the blame. He didn’t have a lot of offensive weapons to work with this year. At least not healthy ones. Not that I don’t desperately want an upgrade at the QB position next year.
Doug Fister. :(
I disagree, I think TJack is very deserving of the blame ...
while it’s true that outstanding wide receivers can make a QB’s job easier, it sounds like the arguments you are making here in describing the past relationship between Hass and DJack is the chemistry they developed with each other from having worked with each other to the point that they are able of intuiting what the other will do.
Well guess what? It’s the QB’s responsibility to establish successful relationships with his receivers through practice, repetition, and a personal relationship. This is a young team, and TJ was supposed to be the elected captain and leader of the offense. If the chemistry doesn’t exist with his receivers, the onus is upon him to work with his starters, drilling them even after practice one on one on their own time if necessary, until he establishes rapport. Matt’s rapport with Mike Williams last year gave way to his breakout season. I believe that TJ, given his deficiencies, should be working harder than anyone else in establishing rapport with his receivers and after Rice went down there especially wasn’t any excuse for him not to be working with his starters every day after practice. Yet TJ couldn’t get anything going with Mike Williams this year. I hear some trying to blame it on Mike not creating separation, or claim that Mike had regressed this year when the blame falls squarely on TJack for not working with Williams enough to know when and how to throw to a receiver that doesn’t necessarily create separation like Sidney Rice. And one look at how poorly TJ exploited Zach Miller is all the proof you need to show how poor of a field general he is. Miller cut his teeth on being a pass catching tight end, and there were plenty of opportunities in the second half of the season to exploit Miller’s talent when he was running routes and not blocking in pass protection as he was used early on. Yet TJ’s sheer inability to get him the ball and throw even 1 meager touchdown to him spoke volumes.
It takes two to tango. You seem to think Randy Moss’s greatness is what solely made Culpepper into a pro bowl QB. I find this comical. Did Moss turn Kerry Collins into a pro bowl QB the two years he played for the Raiders? Nope. Culpepper played at a high level before injuries destroyed his abilities and his career.
When I refer to Tim Ruskell as "Tranny Tim" I do so ONLY in reference to his infamous use of the "Transition Tag", nothing more & nothing less. Some rather thick and uptight petty tyrants that unfortunately moonlight as fieldgull blog writers have threatened me over its use using a popup I was unable to respond to. I find such free speech censure offensive and ridiculous.
That's a fair argument to make.
I don’t agree with every point, but certainly Tjack showed enough deficiencies that criticism of him is warranted. But when the level of criticism reaches a certain point it becomes too much. Even with an elite quarterback this year this wasn’t going to be an elite offense. There are quite a few issues with this offense, and of course it starts with the quarterback, but even if Tjack starts again next year （please god no）there is reason to believe that if surrounded by better talent he would do better. And one area of upgrade would be receiver, even if it’s just the same receivers just healthier and more experienced.
Doug Fister. :(
by Mothy on Jan 12, 2012 7:17 PM PST via Android app up reply actions
A few points.
1. How many of these Qbs we are talking to had to build this so called chemestry with out any OTAs, or offseason
Charlie Whitehurst had all the marbles here, how was his chemestry?
2. The hasselbeck vs Jackson battle regarding Mike williams is apples and oranges.
Hasslebeck is very accurate in short throws and has a noodle arm, Jackson has a Gun but not as accurate. Williams needs an accurate QB to succeed, seems more like Mike Williams issue than TJs. Could Hasslebeck throw a 40 yarder to the sideline as often as TJ has even with a torn pec? Lockette/Butler/Tate wouldnt work as well with hasslebeck as they do with Jackson.
3. This was one of the worst pass protection Olines in the league. Part of that is game planning. Part is injuries.
4. hasslebeck ran a quick hitting offense, and struggled under Pete’s vertical offense. It doesnt make sense to say things like " TJ holds the ball too long, it takes him 4 seconds, while brees has the ball out in 2.8 seconds!" When brees gets a lot of slants and outs, TJ gets a metric fuck ton of deep routes, they take longer to develop.
5. We dont even know if Zach miller is allowed to run routes in practice he is kept in to block so often, yet somehow with no OTAs no offseason, suddenly Chemestry is suppose to appear.
6. Randy Moss didnt make Kerry Collins a pro bowler because he took half of every game off while he was a raider, then again so did most of their team those years. He was also battling alcoholism. Something that Russell later had the same issue(Could be environmental issues)
7. I think another point here is, its not the QBs responsability to create chemestry, its the QB AND the receiver’s. I havent heard any reports coming out that TJ refused to throw to BMW after practice, so for all you know it could have been the other way around and the receviers didnt want to put in the extra work. Everyone who has ever worked with Tarvaris has praised his work ethic. Pat Williams once almost, nearly called out his work ethic, but couldnt go far enough to say it wasn’t good,
As for 2., you're right, but you're wrong
What Jackson vs Hasselbeck highlights for BMW is not that BMW is bad, just that he has a limited skillset. But we already knew that before Jackson arrived. It looks bleak, the way it’s highlighted, but it doesn’t change who BMW is, and what he can do. People seem to be giving up on him a little bit too much.
Formerly knows as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 13, 2012 8:27 AM PST up reply actions
I see people giving up on him, not because he is terrible
But because he has that limitation.
Aside from Lockette who we have barely seen no other reciever is as polarized. I might be higher on him if he was a TD scorer, or had some hard to find ability.
Moving from a terrible team to a contender, you gotta see growth, not regression. Williams, no matter what the cause was, had a major regression. Zach miller rarely was even allowed to run a route and was only 3 yards behind Williams. He didnt surpass the really young talent, and people will expect more from the young talent. In my mind atleast, that means the gap will get even bigger.
Yeah, but you're not going to fly with young talent alone, not in the NFL
Like it or don’t, BMW is too valuable as a veteran presence to let go, especially since his skillset would be particularly valuable for a young quarterback.
Formerly known as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 13, 2012 4:38 PM PST up reply actions
Thomas, can you clarify what about BMW is irreplacable for this team?
or how he is too valuable to let go? Even in his best year ever with a veteran QB, he still hasn’t surpassed 70 receptions or 800 yards. Does any Super Bowl winner in the last 8-10 years have a go to receiver that is remotely like BMW?
Is it his veteran status? Sidney Rice has played in 1 more game in his career and has 50 more receptions, and is a better all around receiver in every aspect of on field performance.
Is it his locker room presence? If you think BMW should stay for the young guys, what do you think about Trufant and Lofa? Isn’t BMW a large-sized JAG WR?
Smashmouth is the new sexy!
I agree it's a chicken or egg argument and that's valid.
But you say “good QBs” then name the best QBs of their generation. There’s the grey area for the middling QBs and I think the point the Josh is making is that these ‘average’ QBs need a lot of help from the WRs too. The elite guys make guys around them better, but there’s only a few elite QBs. A LOT of the other QBs rely on great receivers and it’s much more give and take.
There are a lot of examples, but the AJ Green-Andy Dalton example comes to mind.
Skelton to Fitz.
Stafford to Megatron.
Now Stafford is a good QB, but he’s not a 5K passer on a playoff team without Calvin.
Elite WR’s can make crappy QB’s ok, and average Qb’s good and good Qb’s elite.
What we’ve got here is good WR’s not being able to bail out a mediocre QB.
70% of space is covered by dark matter, the rest by ET.
by hazbro24 on Jan 12, 2012 5:07 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Really? If Good QBs can make any receivers good
And this is just posing a question against the common argument, why couldn’t Tom Brady win a playoff game with Jabar Gafney and Dante Stallworth at Wideout?
What happened to Manning’s yards per completion after Marvin Harrison retired? Why is it the loss of Dallas Clark was so huge to that team last year?
How about the arrival of Robert Meechum for the saints starting his run at consistency since being drafted? Did Drew Brees just suddenly realize Robert was on his team, or did Robert learn more about the subtle moves and reading coverage? My whole argument is that there is a mutual relationship to success of QBs in general. I also believe that it helps a young guy like TJ yates to have a veteran who understands the game vs Andy Dalton who has a rookie running nothing but slants and 9 routes.
I’m not coming to Tarvaris’ aid so much as trying to broaden the spectrum of conversation about the offense to everyone involved. I personally think T-Jack has reached a celling and just doesn’t command the position, but neither do I look at Matt Ryan and think, “God, what could he do with our guys.” Or everyone’s flavor of the offseason, Matt Flynn, I just look at this Corps as being somehow incomplete.
by Joshua Kasparek on Jan 12, 2012 3:32 PM PST up reply actions
The loss of Dallas Clark wasn't that huge ...
since they still went 6-4 without him including winning their last 4 regular season games that led to a playoff berth. Especially after backup tight end Jacob Tamme stepped up and had a career year after Clark went down, developed rapport with Manning.
When I refer to Tim Ruskell as "Tranny Tim" I do so ONLY in reference to his infamous use of the "Transition Tag", nothing more & nothing less. Some rather thick and uptight petty tyrants that unfortunately moonlight as fieldgull blog writers have threatened me over its use using a popup I was unable to respond to. I find such free speech censure offensive and ridiculous.
Except, Manning and Brady have had some elite receivers to throw to.
And when Brady had an elite receiver, his numbers blew up.
by Carl Shinyama on Jan 12, 2012 8:31 PM PST up reply actions
I think your being to easy on T Jack
Granted we all know that Jackson is at best an average quarterback. But he simply does not put his wide receiver in position to make a play on the ball with his passing ability. You pointed out that Baldwin was capable of catching a lot of his passes which is correct. But if you watch a lot of those plays Baldwin is getting destroyed seconds after he has caught the pass or while catching it. I think the comparison makes sense on paper but game film shows that Hasselbeck was at the very least capable of putting the ball in a place that D jack was capable of getting it at. Now maybe this is the case of chemistry but I am not so sure, I think we had a fair amount of plays where Tate, or even Obo went back to go get a pass to bail T jack out. Granted we don’t have the very best receivers but I think they are average to above average.
by Spencer Vail on Jan 12, 2012 2:15 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
You are right
in short routes TJ does have a problem with over leading receivers.
He also seems to play the game about a half second late. It doesnt help that the offense dials up deep routes often.
The short passing game isnt his strong point, its the intermediate to deep passes he excells at.
He is not a WCO QB.
He can chuck it, and I mean he can chuck it deep.
He also, and this may be scheme or coaching, is very protective of the ball.
We have 2 polished receivers in Rice and Baldwin, they happen to be the ones TJ has the best chemestry with.
The rest are at this point raw, next year maybe Golden, Butler, Durham, Lockette come with more polish. It is fair to say they are above average talents, but not quite fair to say above average receivers. I think some need anotehr year, others maybe two more before they really deveolp. Also not sure how effective our WR coach is, anyone know?
S-A
Watching those clips really does remind me that S-A was bad-ass in his prime…
I'm not sure
but I think Shawn just scored another TD against the Vikings.
by bobbyj0708 on Jan 12, 2012 4:14 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
He had some really explosiveness
Watching the goal line plays though, you have to realize just how big those holes were. very good Oline play
There was nobody like him.
Special runner behind a special offensive line. We’re lucky those years belonged to Seahawks fans.
The Receiving core
I still believe Baldwin has a lot of depth, and is a great receiver, Rice is a former pro-bowler (So, he does as well), BMW redeemed himself last year, Tate is developing, and so is Lockette. I’m not naive, but I still think we have a really good receiving core, minus the inconsistency from Obo. And I think you are giving T-Jack a little too much of the benefit of the doubt. Maybe, if he DIDN’T HOLD ON TO THE BALL for so long, or overthrow it, and be so inconsistent at times, you wouldn’t think bad of our receiving core as much. I know T-Jack can be decent with the big throws, and maybe scramble (barely), but he’s not clutch, at all. And after the 49er game, of what happened in the fourth quarter, I don’t have any more faith in him.
People were making these same arguments about Hasselbeck since 2008
Afraid to pull the trigger, questioning arm strength blaming him for the entirety of 2009 and saying Stokely and Matt’s imagined chemistry had to do with Matt being afraid to throw farther than twenty yards Again, everything dumped in Hasselbeck’s lap.
Meanwhile, every QB that played with Boldin and Friztgerald seemed to put up great numbers like Josh McCown Kurt Warner and others
by Joshua Kasparek on Jan 12, 2012 3:45 PM PST up reply actions
Josh McCown, Derek Anderson, Max Hall, Kevin Kolb and John Skelton have put up terrible numbers with Boldin and/or Fitzgerald.
They combine for something like a 4.5 ANY/A, the highest of which is Kolb’s 5.5.
by Nate Dogg on Jan 12, 2012 3:57 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
We've been saying that about Hass because he's been pretty terrible since 08.
So we’ve got words like Hasselception and Hasselsack in our vocabulary now.
Yeah, Hass doesn’t have a Fitz or Megatron or Andre3000 to throw to. Well, neither do 28 other QB’s.
70% of space is covered by dark matter, the rest by ET.
by hazbro24 on Jan 12, 2012 5:12 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Huh? The same arguments were NOT being made about Hasselbeck ...
No one is questioning TJ’s arm strength. He’s got a rocket.
No one holds onto the ball like TJ holds onto the ball. You can’t claim criticism of Hass holding onto the ball came anywhere close.
The only similarity is that they were both consistently terrible … hence the criticism.
When I refer to Tim Ruskell as "Tranny Tim" I do so ONLY in reference to his infamous use of the "Transition Tag", nothing more & nothing less. Some rather thick and uptight petty tyrants that unfortunately moonlight as fieldgull blog writers have threatened me over its use using a popup I was unable to respond to. I find such free speech censure offensive and ridiculous.
All Tavaris needs to be good is to have each and every element of the game line-up in his favor.
They need to spend the next couple years working directly with him to design an offense he can succeed in. Or just cut him & start using all those valuable snaps on a QB w/some upside.
by Richard fg7 on Jan 12, 2012 3:53 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Really? So you want to stick with a guy who needs /everything/ to go right?
You know how unlikely it is in the NFL to get each and every element to work even for a single game, let alone a season?
That’s exactly why you don’t stick with T-Jax.
Formerly knows as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 12, 2012 4:06 PM PST up reply actions
I think you missed the sarcasm tag there . . .
"Baseball isn't the world's best distraction, but only because it's so easy to start a fire." --Jeff Sullivan
by The Ancient Mariner on Jan 12, 2012 4:40 PM PST up reply actions
There was none
This is the sarcasm tag
Formerly knows as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 12, 2012 5:04 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I need to stop trying to parse the different levels of what's happening here
"The time has come," the Walrus said, "to talk of many things."
Sorry. Didn't mean to test your sanity. I'll figure out the sarcasm tag.
And oh no. I’d trade him for a 6-pack if I could
I laughed when I read your response.
Didn’t expect you to be the one to fall in the trap.
Yeah, but Kurt Warner still managed to win a superbowl without Fitz (When he was playing for the Rams). Look, I’m not blaming ALL OF IT on him, but definitely a good majority. Sure, I’ve seen a couple of times to where the receivers could have caught it, but I’ve seen way too many overthrowing from t-jack’s part as well. There’s a disparity between Hasselbeck and T-jack, you can’t compare the two. Hasslebeck was more accurate (sure he may have gotten ints, but he never had the problem of overthrowing), T-Jack overthrows, and is way more inconsistent (but is decent at big throws). I’m just saying, he is a big factor in our losses. Maybe he will get better, maybe he won’t. But, this team needs a leader, regardless, who can be clutch and make better decisions with the football.
Don't forget to use the subject line
When Warner played for the Rams, he had a receiving corps as good as the one he had in AZ.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 12, 2012 3:57 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, that pretty much goes without saying.
This is an interesting post by Joshua, because I agree with what he’s saying but I think he’s using terrible examples. The story about how Hasselbeck threw the ball without being able to see Jackson is a great example of WR/QB chemistry, but a terrible example in defense of TJack. I don’t think I’m reaching to say that TJack isn’t able to read defenses well enough to know where space is going to open up the way Matt did, and that he doesn’t have the confidence to throw the ball without seeing the receiver even if he did. TJack isn’t an anticipation thrower.
And yeah, please use the subject line. Thanks.
by Nate Dogg on Jan 12, 2012 4:05 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't agree with that all together, we saw him make some anticipation throws
To both Baldwin and Rice, though if I said that’s a consistent attribute I’d be a liar. I also don’t know if he struggles so much understanding defenses all together, but he seems to struggle more in compressed situations where he can’t survey the defense to make them declare their intentions. He showed pretty good command at times with the hurry up and pretty bad command at other moments so I don’t know really what to gauge from those performances.
Offense, good offense, really relies on a QB just pulling the trigger on time and in rhythm with his receivers. Something I’ve seen T-jack have trouble with his entire career but show flashes of this year with both Baldwin and Rice at times so again, I’ m not sure what to make of it..
by Joshua Kasparek on Jan 12, 2012 4:20 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, it's a really interesting but maybe impossible to answer question.
Is it learnable, can TJack learn it with more time, would different receivers make TJack look better at it or are these receivers making TJack look better than he actually is? Time would certainly tell, but I’m not feeling patient enough to find out.
You know who else had those same problems
Jim Plunkett…2 SB wins
I was surprised to see he really anticipates Golden Tate.
If he made the throws to Mike Williams that he was making to Golden late in the year, this would have been a far different season for Williams. In my most optimistic hopes, I hope the offseason helps Tarvaris and Mike Williams.
rather if Mike Williams was as good a receiver as Golden Tate...
Smashmouth is the new sexy!
TJack isn't a good enough QB to
hold a starting job long enough to ever develop the kind of chemistry that Hass had with DJ.
70% of space is covered by dark matter, the rest by ET.
by hazbro24 on Jan 12, 2012 5:15 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Sure he is, can't you feel it? Him and Lockette = 10 year superbowl dynasty baby
Heresy grows from idleness.
Why get Matt Flynn?
"Also, for what it’s worth, if we get Flynn, New England and Detroit are on the schedule!" - SSreporters
by Corax --Nevermore-- on Jan 12, 2012 5:23 PM PST up reply actions
Maybe I'm wrong with this
but wouldn’t Hasselbeck throwing without seeing Jackson also be an result of the system he played in? My understanding is that Holmgren’s system relied heavily on receivers running precise routes and the QB putting the ball where the receiver was supposed to be.
by splintrdmind on Jan 12, 2012 7:09 PM PST up reply actions
It did, all WCOs do
Precision routes and timing
Formerly knows as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 12, 2012 7:54 PM PST up reply actions
That's what I thought.
Given the difference in systems, I’d say it’s difficult to make an accurate comparison.
by splintrdmind on Jan 12, 2012 8:31 PM PST up reply actions
There's still a lot of elements of WCO in our offense
But there are significant differences, yes. But that was true of our offense last year too.
Formerly knows as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 13, 2012 8:16 AM PST up reply actions
^
Hasselbeck didn’t have the problem with overthrowing nearly as bad, I should say. But, that’s way besides the point.
He did have a major issue with under throwing though
Isnt that just as much an accuracy issue?
or do you only get negative points for overthrowing?
Man, I loved Willie Williams. Guy was a ball hawk.
I also think, before you can compare TJack/WR to Hass/DJack, you have to acknowledge the offensive system they are/were in. It might be a good idea to critique Bevell’s passing routes.
I also think Obomanu runs very good routes, and gets great separation as a deep threat once the ball is in the air. He’s a deceptive WR that teams often underestimate.
I think you've got 3 main levels of QB play:
(1) “Good” QBs take advantage of the surrounding talent.
(2) “Bad” QBs don’t.
(3) “Great” QBs elevate the play of the surrounding talent. Manning was productive despite questionable OL and WR talent. Neither Moss nor Branch were as productive without Brady as with him.
I think it’s possible for a QB’s play to rise or fall over time, as players grow/mature/age/become injured or the surrounding talent changes.
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 12, 2012 4:03 PM PST reply actions
When Manning/Colts were successful, there was never questionable WR talent
Harrison, Clark, Wayne are all HOF quality players, and I would be shocked if even one of them does not get elected. Not a single Seahawks WR this year should be considered even a potential HOFer at this point, and regardless of team they play for, I would be shocked if even one of them is seriously considered for the HOF.
Smashmouth is the new sexy!
From the start of the year to the end of the year we have all seen the same thing.
TJ lacks confidence, Carol has tried to inject confidence into this kid from day one. Our receiving core is young but i think everyone can agree apart from maybe Obo who has been in the system for 5 years, has improved quite a bit. However, Tj still has issues with confidence. To blame the receivers is borderline nonsense. I feel as fans we want someone to blame like the nation does with the Broncos, it’s either Tebow’s fault or Tebow’s praise. We have a young team that is learning to play together and growing together.
(realizes I’m entering a tangent)
The main thing is I see a lot of room for growth in our receivers who are 1-2 year old players. Tj i believe can be better but i don’t know how to make the guy more confident, we will never know if he can have the chemistry Hback had with his guys if he’s holding the ball and eating turf.
by Dominic Matlock on Jan 12, 2012 4:04 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I think there's some labor laws against using 1-2 year old players... =)
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
I agree, and it might very well be a lost cause ...
as with what happened with David Carr and Tim Couch, the guys ate so much turf getting sacked silly and into oblivion that they were never able to recover as football players despite outstanding talent.
I think the TJack reclamation project needs to be abandoned for the very reason you bring up. This team needs a leader with confidence to complement talent and capability. How can a team have confidence in a leader that has so little confidence in himself?
When I refer to Tim Ruskell as "Tranny Tim" I do so ONLY in reference to his infamous use of the "Transition Tag", nothing more & nothing less. Some rather thick and uptight petty tyrants that unfortunately moonlight as fieldgull blog writers have threatened me over its use using a popup I was unable to respond to. I find such free speech censure offensive and ridiculous.
this is the exact reason Jim Zorn was benched for Dave Krieg
Chuck Knox had the most interesting quote I’ve ever heard a head coach utter. “Dave Krieg won’t do anything that wows you he’s not a pretty thrower or a brilliant passer, but he plays absolutely fearless and the team rallies around him, something happens in that huddle that a coach has to pay attention to, if he doesn’t, he might lose the team.” Quote before the wildcard game against the broncos in 1983
by Joshua Kasparek on Jan 12, 2012 7:15 PM PST up reply actions
I'm not so sure you're positing anything anyone is really disagreeing with
I think our receiving group is decent as is, when fully staffed, but the difference in discussing the QB or the WRs for this Seahawks roster is so big because the WR group has some significant talent and potential, including a pro bowl level talent when healthy, and some lower-level depth that is above-average for the NFL.
What does the QB spot have? What’s Tarvaris Jackson, the Obomanu? Whitehurst? Whitehurst’s WR equivalent probably didn’t make it out of preseason churn. Portis? Portis is like Lockette, he doesn’t really count for anything but some vague potential.
I know a lot of people really want a WR1, but even they would probably agree the WR group looks a lot more settled than the QB group, with a significantly more settled and talented look.
You’re right that the QB and WRs are always an interaction, not one side absolutely improving the other. But you’re overselling it in the other direction, probably in an attempt to correct the dominant narrative. The way we treat the discussion with emphasis on QBs is off. The way you’re presenting it with too much emphasis on WRs also feels off.
I’m also not really buying “interaction” being a huge factor compared to talent. Most WRs in most systems (especially systems like New England) aren’t allowed to freelance, or have the capacity to adjust routes that much. For WR system, scheme and talent almost always trumps familiarity.
Formerly knows as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 12, 2012 4:05 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for the post Thomas,
I knew I’d take my lumps here but at least no one has said they hate me or think I’m of illegitimate birth.
by Joshua Kasparek on Jan 12, 2012 4:42 PM PST up reply actions
It's a risque topic
And I do think you’re overstating a little but that makes sense because you’re replying to other people’s overstatements. Good post, regardless.
Formerly knows as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 12, 2012 5:04 PM PST up reply actions
Speaking of your birth, is your name Armenian by chance?
"The time has come," the Walrus said, "to talk of many things."
Who Knows
Maybe after the year, T-Jack develops a rapport with the group and they settle in, the sky is the limit. The guy has one hell of an arm, I’ll give him that.
A few of those Obomanu throws were either overthrown or dropped in the last few games. Not sure who gets more blame for those.
I know he has problems with holding the ball too long, making one read, etc.
One point to remember is T-Jack has only had 33 starts over his career. I remember reading somewhere that QB’s really take off at around that time in their playing career, and really make that big jump.
It was the magic number for many of Bill Walsh’s QB’s, even Montana.
Of course, that’s a big if…but it could happen. I still feel they take a QB every year until one sticks.
Live work and breathe like an optimist.
by JRock419 on Jan 12, 2012 4:59 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
The problem with your "he's only had 33 starts" besides ...
the fact that had 34 starts, is that it’s not like during those initial 30 something starts the QB is total garbage and then becomes superman arising from the ashes. During those 30 starts the QB demonstrates incremental progress while flashing their enormous potential from time to time that they just need to hone with more consistency.
TJack, OTOH, is still floundering with the same issues he’s had since he had in Minnesota. He has been unable to improve his deficiencies, make any progress with his major faults like holding onto the ball too long or getting more comfortable in the pocket. In fact, a good case can be made that TJ has in fact REGRESSED considering he was zero for SIX in game winning drive attempts this past year since he engineered a total of 4 game winning drives while in Minnesota, the last year he actually proved to have that ability was all the way back in 2008.
So no, I don’t believe TJ is the kind of QB who magically develops rapport after one year in the wilderness with a group of receivers. He’s never demonstrated he’s even remotely capable of such a thing … has no past history of such, and never showed this year even the potential to develop rapport with his receivers. For a QB to “stick”, he must show the upside and potential to one day “stick”. TJ does not show that potential whatsoever … not in the least.
When I refer to Tim Ruskell as "Tranny Tim" I do so ONLY in reference to his infamous use of the "Transition Tag", nothing more & nothing less. Some rather thick and uptight petty tyrants that unfortunately moonlight as fieldgull blog writers have threatened me over its use using a popup I was unable to respond to. I find such free speech censure offensive and ridiculous.
you deny that Jackson had chemistry with Rice?
you deny that chemistry developed this season with Baldwin?
The reality is that you are not even a binary thinker regarding Jackson, all you can see is complete and utter failure.
The extremism of your arguments dismiss them.
Smashmouth is the new sexy!
I never felt like Jackson had chemistry with Baldwin.
Rice, yeah. But not Baldwin. It always just seemed like Baldwin was good, it didn’t ever feel like what Hasselbeck had with DJack or Engram.
I think we saw enough in the first game with rice back to know
TJ wants to feed 1-2 recievers the ball all game long.
The offense calls for spreading the ball around. (Not sure i agree compeltely with this.)
If the chains were loose Rice/Baldwin would have been his go to guys (You have to see chemestry on TJ going to Baldwin so often on 3rd down.)
You can't give every QB 33+ starts (2 plus seasons) to find out if they're good
I would kill myself if we gave Whitehurst the reins for the next two years. Somewhere, much earlier along the way, you have to make a judgement call. All these QB’s that made it past 33 starts did so for a reason. And that does include TJ, but i think his time as a starter are about up.
by B.B.Finnegan on Jan 13, 2012 8:35 AM PST up reply actions
wait wait wait
you’re running through usernames too fast, what was your previous one?
Heresy grows from idleness.
Why get Matt Flynn?
"Also, for what it’s worth, if we get Flynn, New England and Detroit are on the schedule!" - SSreporters
by Corax --Nevermore-- on Jan 12, 2012 5:10 PM PST reply actions
lol I was Krazyleggs before.
Danny asked about the change for a more Formal look and I thought it was a great idea actually.
by Joshua Kasparek on Jan 12, 2012 5:13 PM PST up reply actions
Okay, cool
sounds good
Heresy grows from idleness.
Why get Matt Flynn?
"Also, for what it’s worth, if we get Flynn, New England and Detroit are on the schedule!" - SSreporters
by Corax --Nevermore-- on Jan 12, 2012 5:22 PM PST up reply actions
Is there any chance that you can call yourself "Joshua 'Krazyleggs' Kasparek" and maybe
Beeks could be “Thomas ‘Vasilii’ Beekers?” It would make keeping track so much easier haha.
Eternally looking forward to someone making a Seahawks song based off of Lil' Jon's "Shots" song named "Hawks!"
I didn't know that. And I remember the Vasilii name too.
Hah.
by twocolorcrayon on Jan 13, 2012 1:17 AM PST up reply actions
It's in my sig!
Hell, I been thinking about removing the mention of Vasilii in my sig, it’s been ages.
Formerly knows as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 13, 2012 8:17 AM PST up reply actions
You would think so.
I have no idea. Fixed now.
Formerly known as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 13, 2012 8:32 AM PST up reply actions
I was trying to do that thing where one guy is like oh I'm so embarrassed about that mistake
and then the other guy like maybe slides the mistake under a rug with his foot, and goes what mistake and then winks
alas
We're getting most of our writers inline, real-name style
I think it does look better. Plus we don’ t have anything to hide, gotta be proud to put your own name on your work. I think.
Formerly knows as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 12, 2012 5:14 PM PST up reply actions
True, true
I have this weird thing about needing to know the usernames before that change, for some reason it just keeps annoying the crap out of me until I ask
Heresy grows from idleness.
Why get Matt Flynn?
"Also, for what it’s worth, if we get Flynn, New England and Detroit are on the schedule!" - SSreporters
by Corax --Nevermore-- on Jan 12, 2012 5:22 PM PST up reply actions
Like the change though, it's all good stuff
Heresy grows from idleness.
Why get Matt Flynn?
"Also, for what it’s worth, if we get Flynn, New England and Detroit are on the schedule!" - SSreporters
by Corax --Nevermore-- on Jan 12, 2012 5:24 PM PST up reply actions
Think of all the writers who want but don't get a byline, right?
"The time has come," the Walrus said, "to talk of many things."
Very good points
about one thing it takes to have a successful passing game throughout an entire season. I think fans get so angry when their team loses they need someone to take it out on and if the quarterback has made anything resembling a mistake, he’s usually the scapegoat.
Now someone needs to do a piece on how little actual time Jackson had to pass the ball, and how much impact losing three offensive lineman has on a quarterback’s “pocket presence.”
Next, look for any quarterbacks who have succeeded with so little throwing reps, first in off-season and then throughout most of the season when he was unable to practice due to injury. I doubt there are any.
Put it all together and there’s no way any fan can tell he’s not the QBOTF at this point.
You might have a better point if Jackson had played some of his best games after losing 3/5 of his line.
McQuistan was a bit of an adventure at LT, but for the most part TJack’s protection was fine to good. And every QB missed the offseason this year, and so did every defense TJack played against. The pec injury limited him in practice the first few weeks after he came back from the injury, but he wasn’t unable to practice at all. He was still taking reps and I think the last 5 or so weeks he was a full participant.
He wasn't full participation until the last two weeks
The rest of your post is more scapegoating myth. As I said, if you tallied the hurries and actual seconds of protection, his lack of protection compared to say, what Flynn had in the Detroit game, would be obvious. Feel free to discount every reasonable mitigating factor though if it makes you feel better. Fortunately we can be confident that Carroll won’t.
He's been a full participant since the Rams game
so it was the last four weeks of the season. Your other mitigating factors are off base as well.
by Nate Dogg on Jan 12, 2012 5:55 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Carroll and JS are looking for a new QB.
Guaranteed.
Look, 3 seconds is enough time and he almost always had that.
Teams like receivers that can run 4.3 40’s, because that’s almost 10 yards per second. A receiver is almost 30 yards down the field on a go route at 3 seconds, and are about 40 yards deep by the time the ball gets there. Enough time for a 25 yard route on a double move. Or a 15 yard crossing pattern.
Watch the Saints. Brees almost always has gotten rid of the ball at 3 seconds or before. Regardless of what the pocket is doing.
70% of space is covered by dark matter, the rest by ET.
by hazbro24 on Jan 12, 2012 6:50 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
3 seconds is enough in a timing WCO
Not in a vertical stretch with only 2 receivers in routes.
It sounds more like ...
you need to research a piece that establishes your dubious claims of “how little time he had to pass the ball” or how no other quarterbacks with TJ’s limited experience and throwing reps have had success so as not to engage in apologistic mythmaking. Feel free to account for every possible mitigating factor as to why blaming TJ for his horrible play isn’t justified since it makes you feel better. Fortunately, we can be confident that Carroll and JS are looking for a new QB.
When I refer to Tim Ruskell as "Tranny Tim" I do so ONLY in reference to his infamous use of the "Transition Tag", nothing more & nothing less. Some rather thick and uptight petty tyrants that unfortunately moonlight as fieldgull blog writers have threatened me over its use using a popup I was unable to respond to. I find such free speech censure offensive and ridiculous.
Jackson has had plenty of time in the pocket. 3 seconds is more than enough to have a couple reads and throw it away.
“Next, look for any quarterbacks who have succeeded with so little throwing reps, first in off-season and then throughout most of the season when he was unable to practice due to injury. I doubt there are any.”
Brett Favre, first year with the Vikings. No camp, no practice, no problem.
70% of space is covered by dark matter, the rest by ET.
by hazbro24 on Jan 12, 2012 5:34 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Sure
If you have a coach afraid of angering Favre, and basically letting him freelance, then sure, I agree with this statement.
There were plenty of times that you could look at the sidelines and see Chilly saying NO NO NO
YES!
Live work and breathe like an optimist.
Yeah
I think Chilly was more relevant to that offense than Bevell, and Favre really didn’t pay that much attention to either one.
Formerly knows as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 12, 2012 5:46 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
His only qualifiers were to find a QB who succeeded without practice and camp.
I’d say that was the easiest answer.
How about Brady coming in for Bledsoe? Sure he had camp, but he never practiced with the first team, = no reps.
I’m pretty sure Jeff Garcia has come off the couch too sometime in his career and played some good football.
Maybe Kurt Warner coming in for Green and winning a god damned super bowl counts.
And I’m half inclined to put Tebow on the list too. Even though he’s sucked in victory.
Fuck it, talented guys make it happen. I can’t believe this guy.
70% of space is covered by dark matter, the rest by ET.
Yeah, talented players
don’t need practice! All that “rapport” stuff we hear from players and coaches is crap! We fans know how it REALLY is! Carroll doesn’t know what he’s doing trying to put such a focus on quality practice!! Favre and Brady and all those guys were working with a turnstile on the Oline and the WR corps all the time! Football is an individual game and if you have one talented individual at quarterback, that’s all you need!!!
No ... you're still not getting it ...
No one except you is claiming Carroll doesn’t know what he’s doing focusing on quality practice, or that football is an individual game. Where do you come up with this stuff?
When I refer to Tim Ruskell as "Tranny Tim" I do so ONLY in reference to his infamous use of the "Transition Tag", nothing more & nothing less. Some rather thick and uptight petty tyrants that unfortunately moonlight as fieldgull blog writers have threatened me over its use using a popup I was unable to respond to. I find such free speech censure offensive and ridiculous.
Haha. Three seconds and then throw it away.
That will get your offense down the field! (irony) I’m sure if he was being coached to throw it away after a couple of reads and three seconds he would have, and the scapegoaters would have derided THAT: “Jackson needs to learn that you have to hold on to the ball longer if you want to make a play!”
Uh,
when the D is about to sack him nobody will give him shit for throwing the ball away.
And nobody says he HAS to throw it away, because you know-maybe you see a guy breaking open on those two or three reads.
And don’t even get me started on breaking routes, or back shoulder fades, or any other timing route that damn near every other QB in the game makes. Because you’re not even looking for your guy to be open-you just throw it to a fucking spot and it’s on the receiver to be there.
70% of space is covered by dark matter, the rest by ET.
Do you know what a timing route is?
When I refer to Tim Ruskell as "Tranny Tim" I do so ONLY in reference to his infamous use of the "Transition Tag", nothing more & nothing less. Some rather thick and uptight petty tyrants that unfortunately moonlight as fieldgull blog writers have threatened me over its use using a popup I was unable to respond to. I find such free speech censure offensive and ridiculous.
OK
Honestly your arguement makes no sense.
Timing routes are geared to open a receiver at exactly the right time.So he really is covered when the ball is thrown.
We dont run a ton of them. Its not Jackson’s strong suit, as he tends to “over lead” because he doesnt have timing with his receivers. This could be attributed to lack of reps, lack of “internal” timing, or that he plays half a second slow. could be bad route running, or just plain inaccuracy.
ah ... given your nonsensical answers to some of the pointed questions here ...
it’s all starting to become quite clear why you hold the opinions that you do … you appear to have a very superficial (and thus severely limited) understanding of football.
If you are going to make a personal attack like that
At least back it up. Support your argument, don’t just insult and run. his comment makes perfect sense. I’m not sure if he is right, but it makes sense.
they took turns pissing into the bitch's ocular cavities.
This way to the cafeteria!
by stufr on Jan 14, 2012 2:31 PM PST via Android app up reply actions
How about Matt Flynn
I bet he did not get to throw to the #1 receivers very much this year. Kellen Clemons also signed with St Louis late in the year and had just as good of numbers as Bradford.
Finding scapegoats for Tavaris Jackson baffles me.
Like every other receiver Hasselbeck had during his prime, Jackson’s skills looked better than they were because of the talent that #8 had.
When Jackson left, he faded away, like so many other SEA receivers.
Jackson doesn’t make his receivers look better, he makes them look worse. Tate’s YAC, Obumanu’s YAC, Baldwin’s hands, and Lockette’s speed are all examples of how this “mediocre” receiver group bailed him out many times.
YAC
Golden Tate was 143 in the league in YAC with 152, that is 4.3 YAC/R not exactly stellar.
Obo was 155th in YAC with 140 for a YAC/R of 3.7 not even league average.
Baldwin is good, so TJ should be panalized?
Could Hasslebeck take advantage of Lockette’s speed?
Who leads in YAC? #1 Wes Welker(732), #4 Gronkowski(656) and #2 Darren sproles(703), so who has recievers making them look good?
If the QB puts the ball in the right spot, the YAC becomes much easier
Baldwin was good, but also how many times was he killed right after the catch because Jackson led him right into the defender? But at the same time, sure, a receiver breaking an 80 yard run from a misstackle has nothing to do with the QB.
And so we’re back to the chicken and egg argument…
by B.B.Finnegan on Jan 13, 2012 8:39 AM PST up reply actions
You generally see a lot more YAC from WCO
and slants/drags. Yac is also really nice on screens. We dont run a massive percentage of either. laying it right on the hands in stride definately helps, so does actually catching the ball(Obo, McCoy).
If the speedsters continue to pop the top off the offenses, then you will see the intermediate routes open up, in this system those are where our YAC will come from, and occasionally baldwin will take one to the house from a slant or crossing route.
I thought the two deep balls to Obo in the finale...
…were a microcosm of the problem. Jackson put it in position for the receiver to make the play once and he didn’t; on the other, he clearly overthrew it.
I actually thought it looked like Jackson was developing some faith in Tate in the second half of the season; there were definitely a few times where Jackson didn’t see it before he threw it.
It’s also one of the things that encourages me about Lockette’s whopping whole two catches for that kid going forward; neither catch was uncontested but he caught them anyway.
I do believe that this WR corps is a pile of (good) 2s and 3s though (I really like what Tate and Baldwin bring to the table). A healthy Sidney Rice means a shit ton. Maybe Lockette develops a season or two from now.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
I hate roster-builder questions...
…because everything is so fluid – it’s all situational, opportunity balanced against cost or risk.
I remember when Calvin Johnson was coming out of Georgia Tech and Detroit – who was (wrongly) thought to be stocked at WR at the time – was picking first. Johnson was just too damn good to pass up. Good thing too, or he’d be the Jordan to their Sam Bowie.
I don’t have the time to breakdown college players or players that don’t play for the Seahawks, so I have to speak vaguely. As I’ve said on this sight before, I don’t believe in trading up. Ever, really. I believe in diamonds in the rough and either trading down, trading for or signing known quantities, and volume – unless Barry Sanders, Calvin Johnson, Derrick Thomas, Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck, or Lawrence Taylor is staring you in the face – then you take them.
Receivers, as an overall position, also seem to be one of the ones that transition from one system to another the worst. So there’s that risk too. WRs constantly appear from thin air – think Victor Cruz or Doug Baldwin, guy no one wanted.
I would actually be very interested to see what someone like Matt Ryan at QB would do here with this group.
Most of my cliches aren't original.
- Chuck Knox
Unlike us,
Carroll and Schneider have the All-22 tape. On that tape it is very clear if there are WRs open all over the field or if Jackson has a very good reason for not consistently racking up passing yards. I suspect it’s the latter. I suspect that’s why Carroll even specifically said in his last press conference they want more “offensive playmakers.”
What makes you think that isn't a reference to replacing Jackson?
as he’s the most lacking offensive playmaker who leaves the most to be desired … it appeared Carroll was referring to the field general cause it all starts there.
When I refer to Tim Ruskell as "Tranny Tim" I do so ONLY in reference to his infamous use of the "Transition Tag", nothing more & nothing less. Some rather thick and uptight petty tyrants that unfortunately moonlight as fieldgull blog writers have threatened me over its use using a popup I was unable to respond to. I find such free speech censure offensive and ridiculous.
Despite being the leading receiver on the team last year?
I have a hard time ascribing the responsibility for Williams drop-off in production as primarily his fault just like I would have a hard time blaming Zach Miller for his poor production this year. There’s a common denominator there and it takes two to tango.
Zach Miller. 0 Touchdowns. Barely even targeted.
When attempts aren’t made to even throw to a pro bowl pass catching tight end, that’s a pretty strong statement toward the shortcoming of the passer. And unlike the first 4 games or so when he was primarily used as a blocker to assist the offensive line, there were plenty of opportunities to throw to Miller. TJack seems to require a comfortable separation between a receiver and his defenders before he trusts throwing to him and guys like Williams and Miller are not of that ilk, but are rather the type that will out muscle a defender for the ball. In Miller’s case with his superior height advantage. That’s a pretty severe indication that he’s unable to exploit the talent around him.
If you watched even 2 or 3 games, you would know that you cannot
ascribe the same reason to Miller as BMW for relative lack of production. I don’t think there was a single play where BMW was asked to line up as a blocking TE.
You may as well say Okung would have had more receptions and a few more TDs if TJack wasn’t the QB.
Smashmouth is the new sexy!
T J scored a 19 on the wonderlic. Whitehurst 33.
And to all the Josh Portis fans in the house….13. I know you don’t need to know a ton of algebra to play QB .But common sense figures in there somehow too.
Marino scored in the teens too. That test means nothing.
70% of space is covered by dark matter, the rest by ET.
Less than
Even if it’s a good intelligence test, which is somewhat dubious, that tells us little to nothing about the ability to decipher offenses and defenses and at what speed, which is what we should care about and which does not correlate absolutely with general intelligence at all.
Formerly knows as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 12, 2012 6:42 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, the test is really just designed to weed out the real dunderheads who couldn't do 2+2
Heresy grows from idleness.
Why get Matt Flynn?
"Also, for what it’s worth, if we get Flynn, New England and Detroit are on the schedule!" - SSreporters
by Corax --Nevermore-- on Jan 12, 2012 7:26 PM PST up reply actions
Aha! Now I know why the NFL never called me back.
Doug Fister. :(
by Mothy on Jan 12, 2012 11:23 PM PST via Android app up reply actions
The Wonderlic is meaningless
by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Jan 12, 2012 9:43 PM PST up reply actions
Pat McInally scored a perfect 50
Dan Marino a 16
Hakeem Nicks 11
CJ spiller 10
Jeff George 10
Sabastion Janakowski 9
Darren Davis 4
Scoring less than double digits is considered to be technically illiterate.
More of those names seem to be good players than not, just saying…
I'm hardly Captain Statistical Analysis around here but come on, that 'sampling' doesn't show anything.
Eight of our Presidents never went to college!
"The time has come," the Walrus said, "to talk of many things."
thats the point
bad wonderlic scores dont mean you will be great or terrible, they are pretty useless.
You don't prove no correllation by listing what could be a few outliers.
"The time has come," the Walrus said, "to talk of many things."
I look at that list and have to wonder,
why would they even bother giving that test to a kicker?
See ball? Yeah, now kick that fucker.
70% of space is covered by dark matter, the rest by ET.
by hazbro24 on Jan 13, 2012 9:29 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Daunte Culpepper
had his best year when Moss was injured and only played six games or so. He didn’t have any other big name receivers at the time either.
Moss didn’t exactly make any QBs in Oakland look like Kenny Stabler.
Ugly or bad throws are still ugly or bad
Regardless if the WR catches the ball. I will agree that timing is huge for a QB and WR. That takes time. T Jax is average at best regardless of WRs.
by Redzone59 on Jan 12, 2012 7:34 PM PST via mobile reply actions
it takes time, practice, and repetition upon repetition ...
and a good QB and leader is out there after practice developing rapport and timing with his starting receivers over and over again through repetition.
TJ, being captain and leader of the offense and especially given his deficiencies, had no excuse not to be out there attempting to develop rapport with his primary receivers after practice in camp AND during the season. All QB’s that aspire to be good if they aren’t already do it. Hass, every year, went out of his way to establish rapport with his starters after hours if he had to. One of the big reasons Tebow succeeded this year despite having every reason to fail was work ethic and repetition to shore up his weaknesses. I saw nothing from TJ this year to indicate such work ethic or leadership needed to develop rapport.
When I refer to Tim Ruskell as "Tranny Tim" I do so ONLY in reference to his infamous use of the "Transition Tag", nothing more & nothing less. Some rather thick and uptight petty tyrants that unfortunately moonlight as fieldgull blog writers have threatened me over its use using a popup I was unable to respond to. I find such free speech censure offensive and ridiculous.
He did have a torn pec and partial tear
To his right bisept. I think if he was healthy he would have been out there. He had limited reps during the week so he could heal. One thing I will never question is his work ethic or toughness. Regardless of his QB play he is a leader on this team.
by Redzone59 on Jan 12, 2012 9:07 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Camp?
T Jax didn’t have camp with hawks. He was signed as s FA and with the lock out mess could not practice with the team. I think he had one week of practice before pre-season started.
by Redzone59 on Jan 12, 2012 10:29 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Huh? TJack signed on July 27th and arrived shortly thereafter ....
he had almost the entirety of camp and missed only the first four days or so.
NFL rules prohibited newly signed veterans from practicing on the field before Aug 4th,
and the first preseason game was Aug 11th.
During that week, there was a required 1 day off, and only 3 hours of practice permitted in pads, and only one additional hour of practice on the field, but without pads and at walkthrough rate.
So in fact there were only 6 days to practice with the team before preseason game 1.
The union in it’s attempt to protect player’s health has restricted practice by NFL teams. During the season, no team would permit it’s QB to work with it’s receivers at a non-NFL facility for fear of liability and to protect their assets from unnecessary injury.
Regarding your comment about TJack not working enough after practice with his receivers, just because you make something up doesn’t make it true. And someone here will call you out when you make baseless assertions – something I am more and more suspicious of when you post crap like this.
Smashmouth is the new sexy!
Wait, who called our WR corps talented?
Sydney Rice-Injury Prone, otherwise a A- receiver
Mike Williams-Characteristic of the seahawks the last 5 years-inconsistant-B- when hes on his game, D-when hes not
Ben Obomanu-Depth chart, solid, but inconsistant and not starter material-C-
Golden Tate-Still has yet to be proven, shown flashes of greatness, but inconsistant-C+
Doug Baldin-Wow. Just. Wow. Only problem-not versatile, hes a slot receiver, albeit a good one, possibly great one-A so far, but the jury is still out how long/consistant he can be.
Lockette-Interesting prospect, fast as hell, and plenty tall-bad hands-B-
Overall, I’d call our WR Corps above average at best, when their on their game. Inconsistancy is rampant, partly due to Jackson, but these guys drop alot of very catchable passes, even doug baldwin. We dont have that Fitzgerald on our team.
Talent is different from productivity right now, talent is about upside
Sidney Rice’s upside is Larry Fitzgerald. Golden Tate’s upside is Percy Harvin. BMW’s upside is…uh…Marques Colston, I suppose. Doug Baldwin’s upside is, well, an ideal slot receiver with YAC shiftiness. Lockette, who knows. That’s a lot of upside, and it’s spread, which is good because they won’t all hit their potential or close to it.
At QB, Tarvaris Jackson’s upside is…Tarvaris Jackson. That is the point I made. Assuming you were replying to me, though if you are I didn’t know why you didn’t Ctrl+F talent to just find the post you’re replying to.
Formerly knows as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 12, 2012 8:01 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Thank you for saying things with such pithiness.
We haven’t seen the upside of all of our receivers yet.
We have seen the upside of Tavaris Jackson.
I agree with you kermdawg
We got two good receivers, and one of them is injury prone. The rest are average or worse. And that really sucks when your QB is average. I suppose that is why we are trying so hard to get a running game going!
Overall it is unfair to blame Jackson for the teams troubles. The offensive line played injured, he got hammered by the other team more times than I care to think about, and when he did throw the ball, it was dropped.
THis is a team sport. He throws the ball. The receiver goes after it, even if it doesn’t drop right in his hands. That’s why a great receiver is so valuable, they adjust and get the ball.
Will a great QB make our team better? I think the situation is more like what the Rams went through this year. Great QB, number one pick in the draft, injured and non-effective because of a sucky offensive line and poor receivers.
Tim Tebow, how well would he be doing if they hadn’t traded their best receiver before the season started? Maybe his percentages would be a lot higher.
Lets face it – we don’t have a star receiver. We don’t have a Calvin Johnson that can cover an area the size of a garage while leaping 10 foot high and catching the ball, So we can add a wide receiver to our long wish list.
Calvin Johnson is as rare if not rarer than a franchise quarterback
Let’s keep our priorities straight, and not Matt Millen this stuff up. Sidney Rice is a start receiver, but he is an injury risk. We knew that before this season, we know that now. Nothing changed.
Formerly knows as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 13, 2012 8:28 AM PST up reply actions
Lockette has bad hands?
i seem to have read the opposite
Very soft hands on the long bomb to end the year.
Very soft. Kitten soft.
"The time has come," the Walrus said, "to talk of many things."
by shams on Jan 13, 2012 1:32 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
He does not have good hands
And I’m basing this on “scouting” out of college more than what he’s done for us. Physically Lockette is as ideal a WR specimen as you can get. He’s huge, fast, large wingspan. His issue with his “hands” is more one of concentration, and the fact that he’s had so little experience at WR. He had all of 23 catches in his senior season, and now two with us. He has a long way yet to go.
Formerly knows as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 13, 2012 8:22 AM PST up reply actions
That said, it is hard to imagine...
…the team not keeping Lockette around after he sat on the PS and got a little playing experience at the end of the season. Even if he is on the bubble, a modest salary should play in his favour
I think they like Lockette's upside
But you have Durham vying for the same spot. And a lot of fans here seem to want us to draft a top WR. It gets crowded.
Formerly known as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 13, 2012 9:17 AM PST up reply actions
I don't think Durham and Lockette are vying for the same spot.
I tend to think Durham is in line for BMW’s or Obo’s spot,
and Lockette is looking at Butler’s.
70% of space is covered by dark matter, the rest by ET.
Based on...?
Formerly known as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 13, 2012 9:48 AM PST up reply actions
Intuition.
Lockette takes Butler’s burner deep threat role, and adds height to it. Durham takes BMW’s big man possession receiver role and adds speed to it.
At least until they find even bigger and faster guys.
70% of space is covered by dark matter, the rest by ET.
Carroll likes those deep side line throws
So maybe Lockette finds a home as the #2 some day.
Durham played a lot of slot when he got a chance to play ofcourse he was the 4th receiver at the time though.
based on JS and the packers roster tendencies
I would guess that boo and probably BMW are gone this year or next. They are replaceable level of talent.
they took turns pissing into the bitch's ocular cavities.
This way to the cafeteria!
by stufr on Jan 13, 2012 11:02 AM PST via Android app up reply actions
Love the highlight reels
2002 was the first season I had Sunday Ticket my Freshman year in High School and the first season I could really watch every Seahawk game and haven’t missed one since.
Agreed on the highlights, they rock!
It’s easy to remember S A for his last two bad years, but I’ve never seen a running back that could make all 11 guys on a defense look completely silly on one play.
Beast Quake?
70% of space is covered by dark matter, the rest by ET.
by hazbro24 on Jan 13, 2012 7:27 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Watch the highlights and play this at the same time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrXFJoOameg&feature=channel_video_title
This is what opponents heard when facing the Hawks offense in those years.
Heresy grows from idleness.
Why get Matt Flynn?
"Also, for what it’s worth, if we get Flynn, New England and Detroit are on the schedule!" - SSreporters
by Corax --Nevermore-- on Jan 12, 2012 9:54 PM PST reply actions
I had been considering a similar post, but would have titled it "Seahawks WRs suck (for now)"
1) Sidney Rice is at the low end of #1 WRs in the league, and missed half the season with injuries.
2) Obomanu is a 6-7? year veteran, was the defacto WR2 over the year, and is a WR4 on any team with decent depth. Baldwin as a UDFA rookie is better than Obomanu. If Obomanu was on GB, he would be behind Driver, Jennings, Nelson, and James Jones on the depth chart and battle with Cobb for the 5th spot, but only b/c of experience. Deion Branch was a better receiver than Obomanu!
3) BMW was basically absent this year, except for blocking downfield. He wouldn’t start for any but 2-3 teams in the league.
4) Tate is a raw but physically talented WR, and would start for only maybe 2-3 teams in the league. He would have been a preseason cut from either GB or NO.
5) Baldwin is a UDFA rookie. For his draft status, he performed at an amazing level. On the spectrum of NFL receivers, he is half the receiver that Green and Jones are as rookies. He is an exceptional UDFA rookie, which means he is a good rookie, but he really is a below average NFL receiver, and he was still our 2nd best receiver. Awesome performance this year given the circumstances, lots of upside, but still not even an average starting NFL WR.
6) Lockette is a track star, rookie, who doesn’t know how to run routes. I disagree with whoever above said he doesn’t have good hands, I like his hands a lot. But he is not yet a football player.
7) Durham, as a rookie, might be our 3-4th best receiver (behind Rice, Baldwin, questionably Obomanu), and he was on IR after week 5 or 6. He runs solid routes, has close to elite speed, has plus hands, and is fearless in the middle of the field.
If you take out the Rice games for injury, Jackson was throwing to maybe the fourth or fifth worst receiving corps in the NFL. Jacksonville was worse, Rams probably worse (maybe a push since they got Lloyd), Raiders are pretty bad… I dunno, not really gonna go through each teams roster now.
Yes Jackson had major flaws on display this year, and he needs to exhibit more resourcefulness. The WR also need to get open, be consistent, and catch the balls that are catchable. There is no denying that QB and WR are synergystic components in the passing game, and there are enough problems on both ends of the pass that we can’t really assess the quality of the QB or the WRs independent of the other.
Smashmouth is the new sexy!
Dunno about your point about Baldwin
he has 2x the rec yds of the ‘average WR’ according to
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/25105
Heresy grows from idleness.
Why get Matt Flynn?
"Also, for what it’s worth, if we get Flynn, New England and Detroit are on the schedule!" - SSreporters
by Corax --Nevermore-- on Jan 12, 2012 10:25 PM PST up reply actions
i meant to type a below average starting WR, figuring 2-2.5 starters per team.
he’s around mid 30’s in yards and late 40’s in receptions… the average you cite includes players like lockette and durham as well, which isn’t the comparison I was trying to make.
maybe he is close to the median for WR starters in yards, but definitely below the mean for both yards and receptions. I think he had a phenomenal season, I think his upside is huge, and I think he was one of the top steals of the UDFAs this year, and I hope he contributes as a Seahawk for the next decade, but that doesn’t mean he is a good receiver.
It’s impossible to separate QB play from WR play looking at season long stats, and even on a single play, you do not know if the receiver even ran the right route, let alone runs it consistently from practice to the game. If you look objectively at the receiving corps, it was not remotely good by NFL standards this year (or last year): the best player was injured for half the season, Obo and BMW are stuck in the “journeyman” category, and the rest are just horribly inexperienced.
Smashmouth is the new sexy!
But what we can do
Is notice that our receiving corp exhibited more talent this year than last
and yet our passing attack was worse
and that was after letting go of a declining QB that many people felt had to go
WR talent go up, passing attack go down, it’s on the QB.
This team does not need an aging, established-as-mediocre QB to be the person who develops the mythical rapport with his young receivers in order to suddenly catapult this offense to the levels we all remember from the early 2000s.
We had more
passing yards, higher completion percentage, and more yards per attempt, less INTS, more passing TDs this year.
Yet some how our passing offense was worse? Maybe you just dont remember how bad it was last year.
by Oliudyen on Jan 13, 2012 1:15 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
talent does not equal performance - see almost any WR drafted by Oakland for 20 years
I agree the potential and talent went up this year, but Hasselbeck had been throwing to Obomanu in practice for 5 years, with Branch for 3 years, and had a full offseason to practice with BMW. Hasselbeck knew his OL, and the 2010 OL performed far better than the 2011 OL (for the first 8 games). Hasselbeck didn’t rip his pec and biceps in the middle of the season (but did have a rib injury?). Hasselbeck has 5+ more years starting experience than Jackson. But yeah, you can blame it all on the current QB, because that is the narrative you want. As I said, both the QB and WRs were and are inadequate. We all expect the younger WRs to get better, and I expect Jackson to perform better as they do.
Smashmouth is the new sexy!
reply fail to Wyobo
Smashmouth is the new sexy!
This straw man is making me nervous
The focus is on the QB because the QB lacks the upside that the WRs do. That does not equate “blaming it all” on the QB. This seems needlessly dismissive of other people’s points.
Formerly knows as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 13, 2012 8:31 AM PST up reply actions
I just hope that our FO isn't delusional to think that we are a "good QB" away from being good
Lest we make the Cardinal mistake and overpay our franchise savior.
wow this thread is going nowhere and really getting ugly
i think in short if the draft played out to our advantage we would have dalton and one pretty happy crowd. majority would have been upset initially but came around at the end.
in short i dont think carroll wants tavaris of 2011 to be leading the team. i distinctly remember carroll saying throughout the season …. you know it could be our oline not doing the job or it could be tavaris holding on to the ball for too long…. in regards to passing.
i mean he said he wanted a point guard as a qb and jackson doesn’t fit that role either.
all i remember pete saying about jackson is how mentally and physically tough he is and how most qb’s wouldn’t be able to take the punishment he has taken. honestly i am glad dalton wasn’t playing behind our oline especially during the beginning 5-6 games of year when tavaris was getting hammered 2.5 – 3 seconds after dropping back.
either way long story short i think our current coaching staff will pick the right qb when they feel they found the right guy to play for seattle. we only have 6 picks this year and they have to find as many impact players as possible. the right qb might or might be available. simply picking a qb because we need one is unnecessary when we look at the holes we have
we still need a #1 receiver, lg, dt, de, 2-lb’s, #1 corner, we need better depth on the o/d side of the ball and help in special teams. we had a bad special teams bailed out by an awesome kicker.
we just need more impact players all over and i think our coaching staff will find those players and don’t be surprised if its not a qb this year.
The play that sticks in my mind from the Cards game
In OT, Lockette blazes past Patrick Petersen (I think) and is open on the right sideline. TJ sees him, and if the receiver catches it he either scores, or stumbles out of bounds in field goal range, and Seattle is likely 8-8 for the season. TJ overthrows him,
(Cue Seattle punt, followed by Cards score)
T-Jack Reminds Me of
The Log Commercial in Ren and Stimpy. He’s better than bad, he’s good!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP0kWqJJZa4
Live work and breathe like an optimist.
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