Free Agents vs. NFL Draft - Defensive End
I've seen a lot of posts suggesting that doing mock drafts and discussing what position of need should be 'targets' is ridiculous because free agency is before the draft and who knows what signings the Seahawks will do, and what free agents will leave. I don't agree that it's premature to do mock drafts before free agency at all. There are a few reasons for that.
One, in doing mock drafts and assessing who might be available when we are on the clock, it gives you a sense of what positions you 'have to' target in free agency because the guy that fits your team the best may not be there by the time you draft.
Two, it also gives you an idea of how much you may need to spend in free agency on a player. For instance, if Lynch was demanding $7M/year for 5 years and you knew that Trent Richardson would likely be there at pick 11/12 (he wont be) or if there were say 3 elite backs in this draft class, you may decide to let Lynch go for that price. If it was a weak draft class for running backs you may approach Lynch differently and think his demands are about right based on the free agent market, what he brings to our team and what is available in the draft. It all plays a part.
What I want to accomplish with this article is to see what might be available to us in free agency that fits our team style and what I believe PC and JS are looking to accomplish.
I want to take a look at the defensive options. I can't possibly list all of the players that are available for any given position (example: roughly 38 DE free agents) so I'll narrow down the list a bit and base it on skill set, then I'll list some possible targets available in the draft (various rounds) that again I believe would be 'targets' based on what I believe the team is looking for. First up: Defensive End
DE: Free Agents (pass rushing)
1) Mario Williams - Texans - DE/OLB - Williams tops this list based on his name and reputation. He has speed off of the edge and will get pressure on the QB. He's only 27, but comes with some risk. He is coming off of two injury plagued seasons in where he only played in five games this year and 13 games in 2010.
2) Cliff Avril - Lions - DE - Avril had probably his best year of his career this year with 11 sacks and 6 forced fumbles (9 sacks and 1 FF in 2010). The knock on Avril is his run defence, it's pretty non-existant. He's going to get paid by someone.
3) Anthony Spencer - Cowboys - He puts up decent number for DE/OLB, 6 sacks and 4 forced fumbles. He had a couple of really poor games in 2011, but overall is a good/experienced option that may not come cheap, but less that top two. In 2010, Spencer had 5 sacks and 2 FF, 2009 had 6 sacks and 2 FF... consistent that way.
4) Jeremy Mincey - Jags - DE - Mincey is coming off his best year as a pro, registering 8 sacks and 4 forced fumbles. In 2010 he had 5 sacks and 0 forced fumbles. To me, Mincey is a tweener... is he coming into his own and becoming a force on the line or did he just have a great year in a contract year? He's 28 so his window is shrinking to figure it out.
5) Jonathan Fanene - Bengals - DE/DT - I like him. He's a guy that can move inside and play DT as well, he is a good run stopper with quickness to get to the QB, he had 6.5 sacks this year, only played in two games in 2010, but had 6 sacks in 2009. He's not going to force any fumbles for you (0 in career), but he's an all heart guy.
6) Robert Mathis - Colts - OLB/DE - Age 31 - Worth a post 9.5 sacks 3 FF in 2011, 11 sacks 1 FF in 2010, 9.5 sacks and 5 FF in 2009. Might be better suited as our WILL LB than DE, but hey that's not my job to assess... here are the facts: Gets to the QB! Playmaker (37 forced fumbles in career), Yes he's 31 but has good 3 years left in him as starter.
Other notables available: John Abraham age 34, Andre Carter age 33, Michael Bennett age 26 (RFA).
Available in Draft:
1) Whitney Mercilus - Illinois - DE - One year wonder? I don't think so. He consistanty beat NFL calibre OT this year. This was his first year starting which may raise some concerns about whether or not he is too raw, but his skill set is there. His speed off the edge is undeniable. He needs to be better against the run, but he is either a top notch prospect like Jason Pierre-Paul or a possible dud like Kentwan Balmer.
2) Melvin Ingram - DE - South Carolina - He's a very athletic talent with the speed to be able to get off the edge and get pressure on the QB. He recorded 8.5 sacks as a senior w/13.5 TFL and even had 2 INTs. 2010 he had 9 sacks and 11 TFL. Depending on his combine results and proday, he could be moving up draft boards in a hurry and picked 15-20.
3) Nick Perry - USC - DE/OLB - Oh what? You didn't think I would miss some USC Trojan content in here did you? Actually the PC connection is not why he's here, he's here because he's very fast off the snap and displays good instincts and a perfect fit for the WILL LB spot and would see a lot of snaps at DE on passing downs. 9.5 sacks and 3 FF and 13 TFL are good numbers and could be a target if Seattle chooses to trade down in the first.
4) Andre Branch - Clemson - DE - I'm a Clemson Tiger fan and love this guys motor. He's constantly in the backfield and man is he strong. He's sure to move up to 1st round status in my mind once the combine comes. 10.5 sacks, 16 TFL, 1 FF this season. He didn't have a horrible junior year, but same as Whitney Mercilus you do have to wonder if he is a flash in the pan, as a junior he had 5 sacks and 8.5 tackles for loss.
5) Sleeper pick #1 - Jacquies Smith - Missouri - DE/OLB - He's just a good football player and is very consistent. This year (after missing two games with dislocated elbow) he had 5 sacks, 4 forced fumbles, and 11 tackles for loss. His junior year - 5.5 sacks and 10 tackles for loss. I'll be watching his combine results for sure, but he may be worth a look in the 4th round or so if he's there.
6) Sleeper pick #2 - Jamie Blatnick - Oklahoma State - DE - To be honest with you, I don't know why this kid is not talked about more for earlier round selection. His numbers are certainly respectable 47 tackles, 7 sacks, 11.5 TFL, 7 passes batted down at the line, 1 FF and 1 INT. There is more than just numbers I know, but what limited film I could find with him in it, you could see there is some potential there to be a good NFL DE. Maybe 4th round as well.
Other mentionables: Vinny Curry (no relation), Courtney Upshaw (see him more of pure OLB in NFL so didn't have him in DE/OLB write-up).
So there you go, some possible FAs and draft prospects to sort through. Do you target a FA and use the draft for other needs or do you draft a DE and possibly look for depth in FA? Anthony Spencer is an interesting option for us that won't break the bank and maybe a mid round pick at DE for depth, agree?
I personally think this is a top heavy draft for pass rushing DE, there is a lot of good 1st round talent and early second round talent... it tapers a bit from there but PC and JS find their gems.
My selection: Personally I think the DE/OLB draft class is too good at the top this year to pass on. Because this class is top heavy, there is a great opportunity to trade back in the fist round and gather additional picks and possibly add a 2nd DE in a later round for depth and growth potential. Maybe a Nick Perry late first to play WILL/DE and getting another in 6th or 7th round with room to grow?
If you don't trade back and keep 11/12, I actually have changed my selection... I was a big advocate of Mercilus, but after seeing more of Melvin Ingram, I think he fits perfectly and is a safer selection than Mercilus because he has had two solid years in a row at South Carolina. I know there are a lot of names I didn't metion, but my word count is at 1528 with what is here. If you want to add a name, write it up in comments if you think anyone would fit better in Seattle's system. Thanks for reading, I'm out.
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After the Ruskell years, I don't want any player over the age of 29 to sign a contract with us.
This is just setting things up for failure.
"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff
by EequalsMc2 on Jan 26, 2012 4:27 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Let's rob the other Birds, again...
and steal Calais Campbell for the 3-tech, and use Branch as his Backup and Red’s Backup. I imagine he’ll be franchised destroying my dream, but if is available does anyone have any info on how he would fit in the scheme?
by Christian Bussey on Jan 26, 2012 4:36 PM PST reply actions
He's waaaaay too big to play 3-tech
In fact, I don’t see any spot where he fits in on a 4-3.
Formerly known as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 26, 2012 4:41 PM PST up reply actions
This may be a stupid question, but why not use two nose tackles?
Nose tackles in the sense of the sheer size of the player and not necessarily lining up right over the center (which I’m not sure you can even do anymore… Maybe I’m confused.) What do you think? Having Calais Campbell and Mebane in the middle of the line would be pretty disruptive…
Eternally looking forward to someone making a Seahawks song based off of Lil' Jon's "Shots" song named "Hawks!"
Campbell isn't big weight-wise; he's just one tall dude.
I’m sure he could play the 5-tech spot and he would be an upgrade over Bryant in terms of pass rush, but Bryant is a much cheaper option. Considering the big picture, he’s just not worth it. It’d be a much better option to pick up a FA or draft someone who can play the Raheem Brock roll, or just sign Mario Williams and have oodles of flexibility.
by GasolineSnuggie on Jan 26, 2012 6:23 PM PST up reply actions
The problem generally has a lot to do with skillset, the ability to push compared to penetrate
Generally, you want your one tech to be a pusher and your three tech to penetrate. Right now, both our 1 and 3 are pushers, they shove back the line but they don’t penetrate through it. In fact, Mebane is probably better at it than Branch, but he draws double teams fairly consistently, which makes him a good one tech.
The problem with lining up Campbell next to Mebane is exactly the same as lining up Branch next to Mebane. They’re both plus-sized humans, natural 3-4 DEs, who excel at two-gap pushing but not at one-gap penetrating. Campbell is much better than Branch, but he’s not a different type of player, which is what we need.
Formerly known as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 26, 2012 6:26 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Perfect
That is the best explanation of the techs and their rolls that I’ve seen… thank you.
I do think that because both 1 & 3 are pushers and clog the line is why we are so effective against the run… well at least a big part of that, but yes Pete mentioned we do need to address the penetration aspect of the line (for passing downs) and still maintaining the chemestry against the run.
Agreed
To both of ya. Big Run stoppers are not always going to be big pass rushers. The two are often exclusive, which is why you need the skillset AND the size in ONE guy, thus making guys like Haynesworth(before he sucked) get paid so much money.
So if Seattle was able to sign Williams,
Would there be a technique or scheme issue with moving Big Red to 3 tech. I would love to see Williams, Red, Banger, and Clem as our front four.
...and if a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump it's ass when it hopped.
by Side Effects on Jan 26, 2012 8:21 PM PST up reply actions
Kind of the same problem, yes
That said, we knocked Red inside a lot this year. I’m not sure how it worked out, I’d have to go back and focus specifically on that, but it might be something the FO is considering. Being tall is generally a problem but it’s not an insurmountable one. And if you have the level of elite pass rush like Williams and Clemons would provide, it becomes slightly less vital to get inside penetration, as long as you can reduce the size of the pocket by getting enough push.
Formerly known as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 26, 2012 8:26 PM PST up reply actions
Does Red appear to have the skill set
To be a penetrating force from the inside if he was to only face one offensive lineman? Opposing teams couldn’t very well rely on single player protection against (the theoretically signed) Williams and Mebane.
...and if a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump it's ass when it hopped.
by Side Effects on Jan 26, 2012 9:15 PM PST up reply actions
Red
Red was 3 in Mora’s system and it he wasn’t as productive from that spot. Red is versitile yes but moving him inside again full time I don’t see as the answer and we lose some on defending the run. Mebane, Branch and Red are monsters against the run when together. Red wont get the penetration we need from the 3 in passing downs and causing pressure… Clem was only constant player getting pressure… we need a 3 tech to break in and if not get the sack, to collapse the pocket and get in the QBs grill. We also need the WILL to do the same from the outside… getting pressure from more than 1 source, will make Sherman, Thomas and Kam look that much better… and ‘hurry’ the QB in making decision that our speedy secondary can make plays on… that’s one of the reasons why Carlos Rogers looked so good for SF… took advantage of bad decisions due to hurried QBs (Aldon and Justin Smith) and made the plays.
Good FA 3 tech
Jonathan Fanene that I mentioned above. He’s good at the run but gets the pressure on the QB. He is also versitile enough that he could sub in for Big Red if he goes down to injury.
I think that's what we have... sort of
Mebane, Branch and McDonald… they are very disruptive in the running game. I don’t think they are nose tackles, but the same basic idea… PC did state he would love to add a pass rushing DT to the mix this year as well… which is why I think a lot of mocks are currently showing Devon Still out of Penn State attached to us. I really like Calais Campbell as a pass rusher… he’d be a nice addition.
Rocky Bernard is a great example of a pass rushing DT.
"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff
Alex Smith agrees.
...and if a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump it's ass when it hopped.
by Side Effects on Jan 26, 2012 8:04 PM PST up reply actions
Two massive DTs was the hallmark of the Dave Wannestedt defense
in Miami and Dallas. He’s back in the league now, with Buffalo, so I’m curious to see what he’ll do. I don’t think the tradeoff is worth it.
Head of catering.
by jacobstevens on Jan 30, 2012 9:17 AM PST up reply actions
Simply put
A nose tackle lines up over center, a DT lines up off center. A nose tackle is usually only used in 3-4 or 5-2 defenses.
more importantly the NT generally demands a double team, so they can be a big clog in teh middle run stuffer, but the other interior lineman( in this case a 4-3 defense) would need to be able to beat single team blocks, thus creating interior pass rush and collapsing the pocket.
You could hypothetically have to massive guys in the middle but if they can not collapse the pocket quickly, then it makes your DE’s jobs harder, because the QB can just step up in the pocket. Mebane and Branch are both very good at collapsing the pocket, but not very good at shedding blocks.
The proto Typical DT you want is Warren Sapp, he can stuff the run, and beat double teams while shedding blocks. (Cortez Kennedy was one of those rare DTs that were capable.)
I'd put him at strongside end.
I think he’d be quite an upgrade. I dunno how expensive he’s going to be, but he’s young and I’d support it more than I would re-signing Bryant.
Head of catering.
by jacobstevens on Jan 30, 2012 9:18 AM PST up reply actions
Can't blame you
Ruskell certainly didn’t do it right, in that way… but the experience that comes with age can be vital in the right places to help mold a young team, I think that is part of the reason we kept Milloy last year to help with Thomas and Kam.
Great Writeup
I loved this article, putting the free agents and draft together is a stroke of genius!
Keep up the good work.
That wouldn't be the same Michael Bennett that the Seahawks had in Mora's year?
I thought he had a promising preseason. Always hated to see him go.
Great Thing About A Top Heavy Draft
Is the Hawks are right above the middle, which makes for some interesting trade options. A dream scenario would be to pick up Mario Williams and then one of the top three DE’s from your list, and pick up some hidden gem later in the draft.
Live work and breathe like an optimist.
I like it
I love the trade back option, I like the Bengals as a trade partner, they have 2 1st rounders (they wont trade both for our 11/12), but pick 17 and a 3rd? Williams might be too costly, but then again we should have plenty of room under the cap. With only 6 picks PC/JS have to get creative to fill the needs and get what they want accomplished. Trading back will certainly help.
in addition
If we wind up with pick 11… if I’m not wrong that is where the new rookie pay scale changes so trading up to that spot might be more attractive to teams looking to trade up, instead of trading into the top 10.
Mario Williams is not an option
Signing Mario could means the end of Red Bryant and I hate that to happen.
Not really.
Mario can inter-play between OLB in first-second downs, DE on passing downs.
"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff
Why do you think that?
He hasn’t really played 3-4 OLB in his life, he was a standup end in Houston this year, let alone 4-3 OLB. He doesn’t really have the makeup or skills of one, either.
Formerly known as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 26, 2012 6:48 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
A hyrbrid 3-4/4-3 scheme, I think.
Rob Staton made some points about it here: http://seahawksdraftblog.com/seahawks-showing-interest-in-courtney-upshaw where we essentially put Williams as a stand up 3-4 OLB.
"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff
I don't really see him make that point about Williams in that article, maybe I missed it
But standup end is basically what Williams played in the Phillips 3-4. It was essentially a 4-3 defense with one guy standing up (like our Leo end). He almost never dropped back, and he has none of the skillset of even a 3-4 OLB, let alone a 4-3 OLB.
I’m just saying, he’s an outstanding defensive end, but he has played his entire career as a pass-rusher, and would be best utilized as a traditional three-point DE. There’s really no reason to stand him up, since we play a normal 4-3. He has never been asked to take on a linebacker role and there’s nothing in his skillset that makes me think he can play one.
Upshaw? Maybe, that’s another type of player though.
Formerly known as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 26, 2012 9:49 PM PST up reply actions
If Pete really signs Mario to the team, there's no way he's only going to be utilized as a pass rusher.
He’s probably gonna find somewhere to put him in – but neither you nor I know where he will play with such a crowded team.
"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff
He would definitely play all, or nearly all, of his snaps as a three-point DE.
by GasolineSnuggie on Jan 26, 2012 10:08 PM PST up reply actions
All, I would expect
Again, watch the Texans tape. That’s his job. That’s what he’s good at. Just because his position was named linebacker doesn’t mean he played coverage, in actuality he played defensive end.
PS: there’s always firezone blitzes, though.
Formerly known as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 26, 2012 10:14 PM PST up reply actions
This article brings up some interesting points on DE vs OLB.
It is also a good read on hybrid defenses. I read it awhile back, so I might be a little off on how much it actually applies here. Either way, it is a good read.
I know this isnt our scheme now, but what prevents him
us from moving to a 5-2 on run downs with Bryant in, and a 3-2-6 on passing downs?
Clemons HAS played LB, He could line up as a standing DE/OLB outside Williams, the two would wreck havoc and it wouldnt be too far off from the 4-3 Under.
Crowded team?
Wait, you mean us? Our front seven is everything but crowded. If you add an actual elite talent like Williams, you let him do what is best and mold the rest of your mediocre-to-good talent around him, not the other way around.
Formerly known as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 26, 2012 10:15 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Like the OP said, if we sign Williams, we would lose Bryant, or worse, make him play back at 3-tech where he has not been successful.
Unless you put Mario in where Clemons is, and trade the latter for picks. This is a move I can get behind on.
"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff
Why are Williams and Clemons exclusive of each other?
by GasolineSnuggie on Jan 26, 2012 10:45 PM PST up reply actions
Because Red Bryant's success has been limited to one position.
"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff
That doesn't answer my question.
Why can’t Clemons still see a lot of snaps from 1) playing opposite Williams in a traditional 4-3 look, 2) spelling Williams at LEO, and/or 3) coming on sporadically at WILL and, primarily, blitzing?
by GasolineSnuggie on Jan 26, 2012 11:10 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
If the front office signs both...
This is how i would see it happening. Clemons is a converted LB, Brings speed and presure to the LB position.
Hey, I like Red Bryant, just like I like a Quarter Pounder from McD's.
Filling at a good price….put hand me over a Sirloin Steak, and the Quarter Pounder goes into the trash (or at least the bench).
You find room on your plate for a good steak.
Sure, we could lose Red.
So?
Formerly known as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 27, 2012 2:09 AM PST up reply actions
I totally agree with this.
Red might be exceptional at stopping the run, but he isn’t an exceptional talent. He is just a big body with a single skill set. To me that screams “replaceable.” His value, or the value of his replacement, depends on the direction of our defense, which is still very-much-so dynamic at the moment.
Mr. Beekers, on a side note, did we play more 2-gap this year, or is our 4-3 under still very similar to Wade Phillips one gap 3-4?
We play a lot of 1-gap, but it's a mistake to think that means we're similar to Phillips 3-4
The connection seems an obvious one when you look at them lineup, especially since the standup defensive end reminds one of our Leo end, but while the lineup has some similarities, the scheme has very few. None of our players, even Clemons to some extent, ever really get after the quarterback or runner in the backfield relentlessly. It is more about plugging up your gap and containing, especially from the big three.
I can’t think of an immediate comparison, though our DL coach Wash coached a similar system in Tampa. It’s kind of the worst of both worlds in penetration and containment.
Formerly known as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii
by Thomas Beekers on Jan 27, 2012 4:53 AM PST up reply actions
I disagree. If Seattle were to sign Mario Williams...
Williams would essentially take Clemons’ spot during run downs* and Clemons would essentially play Brock’s 2010 roll. Clemons could actually come in at LB (he played linebacker at Georgia) during some run downs* – that would be interesting.
*By “run downs”, I mean situations where they play Bryant instead of a situational pass rusher.
by GasolineSnuggie on Jan 26, 2012 7:25 PM PST up reply actions
Zing! That would be pretty crazy.
I don’t know how Clemons would take to becoming the shorter end of a rotational player though, especially after two consecutive 11 sack seasons.
Eternally looking forward to someone making a Seahawks song based off of Lil' Jon's "Shots" song named "Hawks!"
Carroll would get him on the field
Clemons would be a great will on run downs and then slide to Brock’s spot on passing downs.
Love looking at Jacquies Smith as a mid-round sleeper
He’s just a good football player, with DE/OLB versatility. Missouri really didn’t stand him up and drop him in coverage prior to this season. He looked like he’d been doing it for years.
He’s not a natural pass rusher, more a try-hard guy. But he has a really high basketball IQ.
You’ll have to read Rob Staton on Melvin Ingram. He just doesn’t see it. I’m a bit more agnostic. It’ll be interesting to see how or if the front office values Ingram. He seems like a bit of a tweener, but I don’t know that it couldn’t work. What I really like about him is that he uses his hands and he has actual moves.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
I love Seahawks with
a high basketball IQ. They always dominate in intrasquad pick up games.
Nice call-out -- interesting prospect.
ONLY IN SEATTLE:
By swaggering could I never thrive,
For the rain, it raineth every day.
The Texans are my second team, I watch them as much as I watch the Seahawks.
Mario’s two seasons have not been injury plagued. Two years ago, he was put away by the Texans because they failed to make the playoffs and they did not want to hurt him. Last season was a torn pec, but he was ready to play in the playoffs against the Bengals, sadly he had been IR’d so it wasn’t possible.
Sonicsgate: A movie about how the Sonics were stolen from Seattle.
and before that?
0 missed games.
Sonicsgate: A movie about how the Sonics were stolen from Seattle.
Plagued wrong word maybest
2010 injury was an inflamed hernia and yes the pectoral this year… plagued makes it sound like in and out of line-up with injuries you are right… perhaps has missed time the last 2 years due to injury would have been a better word choice.
Inflamed hernia was nothing.
He could have easily played the last 3 games, but the Texans were out of playoff contention so there was no point. But yeah, maybe the word choice of Plagued just irked me a bit.
Sonicsgate: A movie about how the Sonics were stolen from Seattle.
The 2010 hernia was mild and in no way (that I know of) related to the season-ending pec injury Williams suffered last year.
It’s a touch misleading to imply that the two equates to some kind of chronic injury history Williams might or might not be suffering from.
Ingram/Smith
Ingram is an athlete, with speed off the edge that produces results. The more I watched the more I liked what he has to offer us. I do think PC and JS may be looking more of a OLB/DE which is why I listed Nick Perry and Smith. Both have the ability to play the OLB and move to pass rush DE. From a DE pure pass rusher though… I do like Ingram, he’s steady and not done learning… lots of potential for growth still.
as i understand it, and i may be wrong
the LEO end is an all out pass rusher. a player that gets into the backfield every play and strikes fear into the heart of any QB. They also have some power on running downs to collapse a hole and bounce the run outside based on what clemmons has been doing.
This is Mario Williams…. He is, in my opinion, the best pure DE in the league right now except for maybe Julius Peppers but I’d put them both as 1.A and 1.B. signing Williams also helps in that our flexability inthe draft would be limitless. Take BPA at 11/12 or trade down. That is my main argument for Mario, the fact that he’s already elite and would just be a perfect addition to a young and raw team. He would also add a tenacity to our line that I don’t see as often as I’d like. Big Red is a load, but passing downs how amazing would Clemmons, Williams, Mebane and Bryant? (I also like the idea of clemmons at OLB. instant upgrade over Leroy Hill in my opinion.

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