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NFL Draft: "Get Your Franchise QB Late!" or "Let's Not Get Jobs, Let's Play the LOTTO!"

F#CK YOU TOM BRADY!

There, now that we've got that settled, we can get to the heart of the issue. Brady was pick 199 and he's probably the best, or at least the most accomplished, quarterback of the last decade. Quarterbacks in history will be measured by Super Bowls before anything else, and Brady has three wins and a fourth appearance in the big game. He's like the Tommy Maddox of the NFL.

He will also be measured by the fact that he was drafted in the sixth round, 16 picks after Spergon Wynn and 3 picks before Todd Husak, and therefore has become the go-to example everyone brings up when they say "You don't need to draft a quarterback early. You should draft a quarterback late because Tom Brady was taken in the sixth round!"

Which is sort of like saying, "You don't need to work. Seriously, my buddy Sclark slipped in a Wal-Mart and broke his back. He hasn't worked in two years."

It is true that Brady exists. It is true that he's one of the greatest. It is true that he was the seventh quarterback taken in 2000. However, just because stars align once in awhile, it doesn't mean that the earth has now shifted off of it's axis. The fact remains that if you want to get a franchise quarterback, your odds of success increase based on how highly regarded that player is coming into the league.

Brady and Tony Romo can't be seen as the rule. They are the exception to the rule. If I based all of my life decisions off of exceptions to rules, then I would watch every show on ABC only because they had Modern Family. This would cause me to curl up in a ball every night at the edge of my bed, rocking back and forth, repeating to myself "Why did they make 'Work It'? Why did they make 'Work It'?" and that's no way to live.

For those of you that say "Let Josh Portis compete for the job in 2012! Don't get another QB!", all I have to say in return is that I can't prove he's not a quality starter in the making any more than you can prove he will even make the roster next season.

We simply do not know. Maybe Pete Carroll knows. Maybe John Schneider has a really good feeling one way or the other. But you? Me? We do not know. Josh Portis was an undrafted free agent in 2011, not a second round pick. The odds that he would be a good NFL quarterback in 2012 fall somewhere between Chipwrecked winning an Oscar and me taking over for Tony Kornheiser on PTI.

Some of the best undrafted quarterbacks in history are Warren Moon, Kurt Warner, Jeff Garcia, and Tony Romo. The average age of their first season as a starter in the NFL? Just shy of 28. Romo was the youngest of the bunch to become a full-time starter, and he was 26.

Portis will be 25 next season, which means if he even started half-of-the-season and was even halfway decent, he'd have a great jump-start on Hall of Famers like Moon and Warner. Those players also got a lot of time refining there skills in other football leagues, not serving on the practice squad.

To say that Portis has even a minor shot at leading this team next season, is to completely ignore history. I mean, to completely and utterly forget history ever happened. History happens. Watch Pawn Stars.

Not to harp on Portis anymore, because I want to start this other history lesson about drafting quarterbacks late, but let me finish by saying a few things. First of all, I like Portis. I like his size, his athleticism, and his projection if everything breaks absolutely right. But second of all, do you know how many career passing attempts he has in Division I college football? 14. He had eleven at Florida back in 2005 and three at Maryland in 2008. He did not play at Cal in Berkley. He played at California of Pennsylvania, a division II school. Portis is a stupendously interesting prospect, and that's why he's on an NFL team at all even though he went to a small school and completed 57% of his passes against weak competition, but he's so very far from playing in the NFL. I think we should put that to bed.

Something that I won't put to bed (besides a girl tonight) is the idea of drafting a QB this year, no matter round it is. Do I have an issue with drafting a QB in the first? Not if it's the right guy. Do I have an issue with drafting a QB in the sixth? Not if it's the right guy. Do I have an issue with going to a baseball game with a friend of a friend? Not if it's the right guy.

The most important thing for us to do as fans though is properly set our expectation levels. There's a major difference between what you expect from a first round QB and a sixth round QB. You don't say "I REALLY like so-and-so in the fifth round! He's going to be a stud!" Just because Brady happened does not mean that it's common. It's very uncommon. How uncommon?

Let's look.

Star-divide

Here is a list of every QB drafted per year, starting with 2000:

2000qb_large

This was a very interesting year, not just because of Brady, but because Chad Pennington was the only QB drafted in the first two rounds. That was only the second time that had happened since 1988, with the other time being Tony Banks in 1996. (In '88, no QBs were drafted before round three.)

Pennington has had a not-unsuccessful, not great NFL career. For being the 18th overall pick, I would say that 5 seasons as a capable starter makes him a good selection. Being drafted 18th overall doesn't set the expectation level at "star" to me. Around there, I'd say the expectation level is only "starter" not "star" which brings me to where I set my expectation levels:

Pick 1-10: "Star. Pro Bowl QB"

Rest of 1st round: "Starter. Potential to be a star. Maybe has 1 or 2 outstanding seasons."

2nd round: "Potential to be a starter. High upside."

3rd round: "Potential to be a starter. Don't expect it though. Expect to be no less than a good backup. Upside for more."

4th-7th round: "Either has upside to be a star but is very raw, or has low upside but I believe he can stick as organizational depth like Bruce Gradkowski. Any player drafted with idea that he can turn into a star is done so with the expectation that it's a 3-year project at least."

Undrafted: "No expectations. A total flier. Not even likely to debut with team that originally signed him"

Why limit only the top 10 to be QBs that are expected to be a star? Because there are not enough teams in the top 10 of a draft that are set at QB to ever let a player with those expectations fall out of the top 10. Teams were split on Aaron Rodgers, otherwise he would have never fallen that far.

As for 2000, we see that no quarterback was expected to be a star, but there were plenty of guys with that kind of upside. There were 12 quarterbacks drafted that year and they have combined for nine Pro Bowl appearances: Seven for Tom Brady and two for Marc Bulger.

Pennington enjoyed an incredibly efficient 2002 season, completing 68.9% of his passes and throwing only 5 interceptions, but injuries derailed his career and we'll never know what he could have done if he stayed healthy. He led the NFL in QB rating that year.

If you take out the two exceptions taken after the first round (Brady and Bulger) then the other nine players combined for 1,406 pass attempts. Giovanni Carmazzi never played in an NFL game. None of Tee Martin, Todd Husak, JaJuan Seider, Jarious Jackson, and Joe Hamilton attempted more than 22 passes in their careers, which would be like one NFL game at most.

Chris Redman has turned into the perfect example of a backup quarterback, never starting more than six games in one NFL season, but he is still on an NFL roster today. Tim Rattay enjoyed eight seasons in the NFL, beating out Carmazzi in San Francisco, with 18 career starts.

I want to make some statistics here for "Successful Career" but how to do so? How about a set of qualifications?

A successful QB has either 3 seasons as a starter OR 1 Pro Bowl Appearance OR 6 seasons in the NFL?

I think this sets the bar low enough to not piss anyone off to say "Why isn't 'player X' considered successful?!?! YOU IDIOT!" because it's just better to include than to exclude sometimes.

The 2000 draft had:

5 successful QBs - Pennington, Redman, Bulger, Brady, and Rattay. (41%)

3 successful QBs drafted after round 3 (33%)

1/1 successful QBs drafted in the first round

0 QBs drafted in 2nd round

1/2 successful QBs in 3rd round

There was one "Superstar QB" and he was taken in round 6 and one other "Very Good" QB (Bulger) also taken in round 6.

Conclusion:

The 2000 draft was rare in that it had no great QB prospects and a run on QBs in round 6. The two best were taken in that round, while Pennington became a good QB that lasted 11 years in the NFL with five years as a starter. Though Brady and Bulger worked out, and Rattay had moderate success, the rate of successful QBs after round 3 was one in three.

2001

2001qbs_large

In another interesting year, only one quarterback was taken in the first round (though Brees was the first pick in the second.) There were five QBs taken in the first round in 1999 and three taken in the first round in 2002, but only two combined in 2000 and 2001.

That's also important to note, something I was talking about previously on Field Gulls in regards to the 2012 draft. Though it would have made a difference if Matt Barkley and Landry Jones had declared, remember that the run on quarterbacks in last seasons draft means that there are fewer teams looking for a QB this season. It's too soon for most of those teams to spend another high pick on a QB which means that there is less competition for a quarterback this season. In 1999, beyond the five players taken in the first, Shaun King went to Tampa Bay in the second and Brock Huard went to Seattle in the third. This effect may have caused one of those teams to reach on a player like Chris Redman in the second round instead of the third, but they didn't feel it necessary.

There were 11 quarterbacks drafted in 2001, with one in the first and three in the second.

Michael Vick was considered a player with superstar potential and Atlanta traded up to get him. Four Pro Bowls and several playoff appearances later, he has to be considered a success.

Drew Brees was the next best QB available and slipped to the second round because of his height, among other things, but clearly had that "Potential to be a star" that I talked about. He's the best of the draft, obviously.

After Brees, there were nine quarterbacks drafted and they combined for 0 Pro Bowl appearances and four seasons as a "starter." A.J. Feeley, sixth round pick, has the most attempts of all the other QBs with 762 and is still in the league as a backup. Four of those nine quarterbacks qualified as successful for "years played" but none of them would be considered quarterbacks that could be "franchise" though at one time, Feeley, Quincy Carter, Marques Tuiasospo, Chris Weinke, and Sage Rosenfels were given chances and failed to hold onto those jobs.

The 2001 draft had:

6 successful QBs (54.5%)

3 successful QBs drafted after round 3 (42%)

1/1 successful QBs drafted in round 1

2/3 successful QBs drafted in round 2

0 QBs drafted in round 3

There were 2 superstar QBs, drafted in rounds 1 and 2 (the two best QB prospects of 2001)

Of the 9 next-best QBs, 0 of them turned into anything other than a career backup

2002

2002qb_large

The 2002 draft had two QB prospects that were considered to have Star potential: David Carr and Joey Harrington. I suppose this is where "successful" tag sort of gets convoluted. Yes, they were both starters for significant time, and stayed in the league for a significant amount of time, but they fell way short of expectations. So, a caveat?

If you are drafted in the top 10 and fail to make 1 Pro Bowl appearance (arbitrary I know, but it's fair to say that a Star would make a Pro Bowl) then you are unsuccessful. It's low expectations for a top 10 pick to say he makes 1 Pro Bowl.

A player drafted in the latter half of the first round that makes a Pro Bowl, I would say has exceeded my expectations.

There were 15 quarterbacks drafted in 2002, significantly more than the previous two years. Yet, all 15 QBs combined for 1 Pro Bowl appearance: David Garrard, a fourth round pick.

Patrick Ramsey was drafted in the same position as Drew Brees, but with Houston now in the league, was in the first round. What would be considered a success for a player drafted in the first round but not in the top 10? Well, I don't EXPECT a player like that to be a Pro Bowler, but I did say I expect him to be a starter. How about 3 years as a starter as a caveat? (A starter being that he starts at least half of the season)

Garrard was by far the most successful QB taken in 2002, enjoying five seasons as a starter in Jacksonville with 1 playoff appearance and 1 Pro Bowl.

There is a steep drop-off in QB quality after Garrard was taken; out of 10 QBs taken, 10 guys with upside or potential to be a backup, only two of them stayed in the league for longer than three seasons. Eight out of ten quarterbacks drafted after Garrard in 2002 were out of the league by 2005.

They combined to appear in (mind you, only APPEAR in) 43 games. That's 4.3 appearances per QB and 17 of those were by J.T. O'Sullivan, a player who was also once thought to maybe have a chance to be a starter after having pre-season success in New Orleans, but ultimately couldn't do it.

If you take into account the caveats presented above then

2002 had:

4 successful QBs - Josh McCown, Garrard, Craig Nall and J.T. O'Sullivan (26%) Three of those guys considered successful because they stayed in the league for six or more years. Garrard being the only good player taken out of 15 (6%) while Carr has found a successful career as a backup, he was drafted as a franchise QB.

0/3 QBs in round 1 were successful

0 QBs taken in round 2

1/1 QB was successful in round 3

3/11 QBs successful in rounds 4-7 (27.2%)

There were 0 superstar QBs out of 15 and 1 "Very Good" player, taken in round 4.

2003

2003qb_large

There were 13 QBs drafted in 2003 and four went in the first round. (Fun fact: There were 0 quarterbacks taken in the second round between 2002 and 2005) Out of 13 quarterbacks, only Carson Palmer made a Pro Bowl appearance, making two of them.

Palmer and Byron Leftwich were drafted to be franchise quarterbacks, while Kyle Boller and Rex Grossman had very high upside and taken in the latter half of the first. Everybody else taken either had high upside or looked like they might at least be able to stick around as backups. Drew Henson is the classic example of a very raw project that seemed like he could be a star, he just hadn't played football in so long. At one time, he would have been an easy first round pick.

I also remember that Chris Simms was drafted with much excitement, seen as a "slip" to the third round because of his fathers status and his college football success. The Seahawks struck the most gold after round 1 however, snagging Seneca Wallace, a very good BACKUP quarterback, in round four.

Near-Mr-Insignificant Ken Dorsey also enjoyed some success as a backup in the NFL.

Leftwich has to be considered a bust after only lasting as a starter for three years in Jacksonville until losing his job to the aforementioned Garrard when Leftwich failed to stay healthy or successful. People seem to have this idea that Leftwich had some success in the NFL, but during his best season he completed 57.9% of his passes for 2,123 yards, 15 TD, 5 INT over 11 starts. That's not 7th overall pick kind of success.

I don't want to add another caveat, so I just won't do it and I'll count Kyle Boller as a "success" because he had four years as a "starter" in the NFL since the Ravens don't have high expectations for quarterback play since they rely on great defense, but even as the 19th overall pick (in which I only expect you become a starter) he was a bust. He is a pretty bad quarterback in relevance to the NFL, and even his qualifications as a backup are shaky considering how bad he was during his one start with the Raiders this season. Boller has attempted 32 passes over the last two seasons and thrown four interceptions.

The 2003 draft had:

8/13 successful QBs - Palmer, Boller, Simms, Wallace, Brian St. Pierre, Brooks Bollinger, Dorsey. Out of those, I don't feel good about putting Boller there, but I have to stick by my rules, Simms still disappointed in his time in Tampa, St. Pierre, Bollinger and Dorsey are mostly just successful because of how long they stuck as backups in the NFL. Palmer and Wallace would be the most successful based on expectation levels. Grossman has still only started two seasons in the NFL, even counting this year.

2/4 successful QBs in round 1 - damn it Boller

0 QBs taken in round 2

1/2 successful QBs in round 3

5/7 successful QBs taken after round 3

1 "Superstar" or "Very Good" QB taken in this draft and it was the number one overall pick. None of the other 12 could hold an NFL job. Most of the success came in teams finding capable backups after the third round.

2000-2003

After a sample size of 4 drafts and 51 drafted quarterbacks, here is our conclusion of "Success"

23/51 (45%) Quarterbacks found some semblance of success based on expectation and I set a pretty low bar.

1st Round - 3/9 (33.3333333333333%)

2nd Round - 2/3 (66.66666666666666666666%)

3rd Round - 3/5 (60%)

4th Round - 4/6 (66.67%)

5th Round - 3/8 (37.5%)

6th Round - 4/12 (33.3%)

7th Round - 2/8 (25%)

The Best of the Best: Brady, Vick, Brees, Palmer. 6th, 1st, 2nd, 1st.

Next Best: Pennington, Bulger, Garrard. 1st, 6th, 4th.

There were 39 quarterbacks taken after round 3 and one of them turned into a Superstar (2.5%) and two of them turned into good, starting quarterbacks (5%) which is a 1 in 20 shot that you land a good starting quarterback, or if you take all three into consideration that's 1 in 13, which is a little less than 1 per draft. (Only counting taken after 2nd round.)

Take out Brady, Bulger, Brees and Garrard and just focusing on good backups: 14 out of 42 players drafted after the first round turned into good backups or players that could either start when called upon or stick around on an NFL roster for at least six seasons, which is 33%.

Five quarterbacks were drafted in the top 10: Vick, Carr, Harrington, Palmer, Leftwich, which gives you two players that lived up to expectations and three players that turned into backups, which we found is only a 33% success rate for quarterbacks drafted after the second round. While they were all busts based on expectations, all three stuck around for awhile. How much of that has to do with name recognition? Greater than zero, but impossible to know. Carr, Harrington, and Leftwich all had some small levels of success.

Trying to find Tom Brady or a very good "Franchise" QB over this four year sample size showed that while it's a FACT that you can find Brady in round 6, it's easy to forget just how many quarterbacks are drafted every year. How can one be sure that they are drafting the next QB? How can one be sure that Brady would have matured the same at all under someone other than Belicheck? How can Eminem have so many followers on Twitter when he never tweets anything?

I don't know the answers to any of these questions but I had fun finding some answers and fleshing out my thoughts into actual numbers.

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Rec'd for paragraph four.

A brilliant retort. I can’t wait until somebody next tells me the Seahawks should wait and draft Tom Brady Part Deux in Round 6 of the draft.

"The time has come," the Walrus said, "to talk of many things."

by shams on Jan 6, 2012 12:15 PM PST reply actions  

I can't wait for the Seahawks to draft the next

Chad Pennington! In honesty, I always liked that guy. How can you not like the NFL all-time-leader in completion percentage? He’s like the ultimate moneyball QB.

by Tokyo Slim on Jan 6, 2012 12:31 PM PST reply actions  

I was a huge Pennington fan. Feel really bad for the guy.

He can hurt himself unloading the dishwasher.

"The time has come," the Walrus said, "to talk of many things."

by shams on Jan 6, 2012 12:59 PM PST up reply actions  

Anybody else enjoy his commentary last Sunday?

He had a certain Opie(as in Opie from the Andy Griffith Show) appeal. He seemed quite knowledgeable, and his insights countered his delivery in my mind.
I too would be happy with a Chad Pennington like QB at this point.
Btw, Chad’s ancestors deserve some kudos for finding a way to fit four "n"s in there. I love "n"s.(Sesame Street must be getting to me.)

by brugg on Jan 6, 2012 1:02 PM PST via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

Delivery can be taught

Insight, clearly, can not. Go Chad.

"The time has come," the Walrus said, "to talk of many things."

by shams on Jan 6, 2012 1:05 PM PST up reply actions  

I really disliked the sound of his voice.

The combination of him and whateverhisnamewas was killing me. I did like the content of what he was saying though.

by TS6 on Jan 6, 2012 1:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, I did.

It felt awkward initially, but he seemed to say what he wanted to say. It was fresh.

That said, after a while, he’ll probably get beat down enough by the powers that be.

by djafrot on Jan 6, 2012 2:08 PM PST up reply actions  

"Some of the best undrafted quarterbacks in history are Warren Moon, Kurt Warner, Jeff Garcia, and Tony Romo."

This is a Seahawks site and you can’t give just a little love to Dave Krieg?

Man. I guess you did say “some of.”

by Suburban Shocker on Jan 6, 2012 12:54 PM PST reply actions  

You got me there. My brain was just scrambling.

This morning I couldn’t remember my maternal grandmothers name as a security question. (This is actually not a joke, this actually happened.)

follow @casetines

by Kenneth Arthur on Jan 6, 2012 12:58 PM PST up reply actions  

I really hope you mean her maiden name

"The time has come," the Walrus said, "to talk of many things."

by shams on Jan 6, 2012 12:59 PM PST up reply actions  

You remember your grandmother's first name?

All my grandma’s were simply known as “grandma (insert last name)”. Damn if I could tell you anything else. Well, she made good cookies.

by brugg on Jan 6, 2012 1:14 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

I don't think you need to put Moon in that category

He was a very special case based on his race and when he was in college. In another era he would have been a first round draft pick.
It makes your point even stronger.

they took turns pissing into the bitch's ocular cavities.
This way to the cafeteria!

by stufr on Jan 6, 2012 1:05 PM PST reply actions  

You had me at

F#CK YOU TOM BRADY

by Redzone59 on Jan 6, 2012 1:31 PM PST via mobile reply actions   2 recs

Give David Carr some love...

I’ve always felt that if David Carr had gone to another team that had absolutely anything with a pulse around him on the O-Line or in the skill positions, he may have been very successful. As it was, the poor guy took a mercilous beating for four years (you think T-Jack is tough!) without ever complaining, and while making the vast majority of his starts.

I’d say he is a success simply because he’s still in the league … and still able to walk.

by Emperor_MA on Jan 6, 2012 1:43 PM PST reply actions  

I know, I know.

I just tend to give the guy a pass because he had to play (or get killed) behind perhaps the worst o-line in NFL history. Really is amiracle he’s still alive.

BTW, great research.

by Emperor_MA on Jan 6, 2012 3:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Thanks. And I was a believe in Carr as well, and he wasn't given a great chance.

His “unique throwing motion” was a big knock on him, but the same knock that Philip Rivers had. If he had been given a chance on another team, who knows…

follow @casetines

by Kenneth Arthur on Jan 6, 2012 3:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Heve you seen CArr's little (in age only) brother play?

Saw Derek Carr on TV a couple of times. Big-time arm, and much more of a demonstrative, gunslinger type than David. He could get a shot in the league in a couple of years.

by Emperor_MA on Jan 6, 2012 4:03 PM PST up reply actions  

same could be said for Tim Couch ...

there are probably some other decent examples that escape me at the moment of highly drafted if not draft 1st overall QB’s that were so battered silly from a lack of decent OL’man that it killed their careers.

When I refer to Tim Ruskell as "Tranny Tim" I do so ONLY in reference to his infamous use of the "Transition Tag", nothing more & nothing less. Some rather thick and uptight petty tyrants that unfortunately moonlight as fieldgull blog writers have threatened me over its use using a popup I was unable to respond to. I find such free speech censure offensive and ridiculous.

by el80ne on Jan 8, 2012 5:18 AM PST up reply actions  

Great article

Really enjoyed the read. Smart and funny.

I like Josh Portis, I realize that it is a long stretch to say he is our next QB, he may not ever step on the field. It is also very rare that someone who is taken in late rounds (or early rounds for that matter) in the draft will be a hall of famer or perennial All-Pro like Tom Brady. I would love for us to draft a future QB, but that is fool’s gold. Sometimes you have to win with a running game, defense, and a borrowed (via free agency) QB. I love Tjax, I think he got better towards the end of the season, but he is definitely not long term starter potential. Our defense is one of the best in the league, our Oline played farely well considering the injuries, we have a Beastly running back, we have receivers who can make plays, we are just missing that one piece……..

Peyton Manning anyone? I’d hate to see this team go to waste due to, to be honest, piss poor qb play. With Manning, if healthy, we are talking super bowl potential for this young team. It also depends on our line protecting him but I think Cable has done an awesome job with that group this season.

by datboyeddiep on Jan 6, 2012 2:07 PM PST reply actions  

I dont think our defense is anywhere close to awesome yet.

And I want nothing to do with Manning. It would be going against what the team has built the last two years.

by sadface on Jan 7, 2012 1:59 PM PST via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

How would it be going against everything we've built?

I mean Peyton Manning is a lock to be successful. We can go after a Matt Flynn, who is not a lock, but could be very successful with more upside. It’s hard to beat Peyton Manning though. I guess you are referring to his age maybe?

And our defense is stacked! The only thing we need improvement in is pass rushing. I believe we were top of the league in every other category.

by datboyeddiep on Jan 8, 2012 10:02 AM PST up reply actions  

Everybody hates the term System QB

But thats what seattle needs, someone to fit the system. I think the Hawks have an idea of the prototypical qb for their style of offense. T Jax is a mediocre version of the QB PC/JS want, Portis also fits that mold so I can see why the stayed with him

To me the year brady got hurt was a pretty telling tale of the new england philosiphy. Cassel came in (same build, and general qb style) and ran the offense very effectively, becaue he knew the system.

Look at a a guy like Carr who if he was in New England could of been a star. But because Houston had no direction, they destroyed him. I see this happening to an extent to Luck in Indy, the colts system was to let Peyton call the plays and run the show, is this the idea for Luck?

I think RG3 fits the criteria of what they are looking for, after that maybe Tannerhill but he is a big project and a 2nd round pick. Flynn is an appealing option but is he just the beneficiary of the GB system?

by steverolley on Jan 6, 2012 2:09 PM PST reply actions  

I wouldn't say it's what Seattle "needs".

But it’s what this FO is hoping to get by with.

by djafrot on Jan 6, 2012 2:11 PM PST up reply actions  

QBs make the system...

NE, GB, NO, IND systems are all based on the QB talent, they are the system and a good coach will put his players in their best position for success.

Luck calls his own plays in college and ran the show, he looks eerily like Peyton in the way he lines up his offense and calls out plays.

by Seahawcla on Jan 6, 2012 2:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Flynn?

And his numbers last Sunday?

by SquawkMantra on Jan 7, 2012 12:50 AM PST up reply actions  

One Game...

Against a team whose defense is spotty at best past a DL, maybe Flynn is OK as well time will tell.

by Seahawcla on Jan 7, 2012 4:36 PM PST up reply actions  

2nd rated pass defense in the league is "spotty"?

Considering their pass rush is so monstrous to make that happen, I would have to disagree.

When I refer to Tim Ruskell as "Tranny Tim" I do so ONLY in reference to his infamous use of the "Transition Tag", nothing more & nothing less. Some rather thick and uptight petty tyrants that unfortunately moonlight as fieldgull blog writers have threatened me over its use using a popup I was unable to respond to. I find such free speech censure offensive and ridiculous.

by el80ne on Jan 8, 2012 5:24 AM PST up reply actions  

I disagree. I think they based their style of offense based on TJack's limitations ...

thus requiring a strong running game to be successful. Not the other way around. If they had a dynamic Rodgers/Brees type QB they wouldn’t have pigeonholed that sort of talent into just a “game manager” role of field general.

When I refer to Tim Ruskell as "Tranny Tim" I do so ONLY in reference to his infamous use of the "Transition Tag", nothing more & nothing less. Some rather thick and uptight petty tyrants that unfortunately moonlight as fieldgull blog writers have threatened me over its use using a popup I was unable to respond to. I find such free speech censure offensive and ridiculous.

by el80ne on Jan 8, 2012 5:27 AM PST up reply actions  

So good.

Your “slipping on the floor at Wal Mart” analogy is perfect.

by djafrot on Jan 6, 2012 2:12 PM PST reply actions  

Paragraph 5 is the best paragraph ever written on Fieldgulls.

It’s surprising how truly terrified some people are of the first-round quarterback.

http://17power.blogspot.com

by Brandon8 on Jan 6, 2012 2:31 PM PST reply actions   2 recs

No shit.

Rick Mirer was drafted 20 years ago, and when the Hawks determined that he wasn’t their guy they moved him for another first! What the hell is so scary?
The Chargers missed on Leaf, so what? They then hit on Bress AND Rivers. Sure it’s scary, but so is kissing a girl the first time. To continue to progress you have to make that leap eventually. 20 years is a long time.

by brugg on Jan 6, 2012 3:26 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

I wasn't scared my first time, my uncle taught me well.

High demand, low supply and being behind almost every other team in need of a QB makes it a scary proposition.

by goatweed on Jan 7, 2012 6:27 AM PST up reply actions  

Once the top two or three QBs are off the board

In the first round, it really doesn’t matter where you draft the rest. They all got an equal shot. That’s why the majority of backups get drafted in the later rounds.

by AlaskaHawk on Jan 6, 2012 2:46 PM PST reply actions  

Interestingly Enough.

Even if you take out the “round” picked and look only at QBs, over the last 4 seasons (including this year) 75% of all playoff berths have gone to teams who were lead by a qb who was among the first 3 drafted at the position in their respective drafts (the major exceptions being Brady, Romo, and Hasselbeck). Playoff appearance obviously aren’t a great measure of an individual (hello Alex Smith) but recent history seems to suggest that if they playoffs are your goal you want one of the first 3 qbs taken in a draft.

by wetzelcoal on Jan 6, 2012 2:46 PM PST reply actions  

I love your writing style.

Oh and also, great article. Nice work.

by skwid206 on Jan 6, 2012 3:02 PM PST reply actions  

Good read, couple of questions

What metrix did you use to determine “Success?”
How do you compensate for the “Extra leash” given first round QBs vs QBs from other rounds? After all a First round pick generally will be given much more time to develop (Alex Smith, David Carr, Kyle Boller and yes the dreaded Rick Mirer reference)

by Oliudyen on Jan 6, 2012 4:01 PM PST reply actions  

As it reads in the article:

Pick 1-10: 1 Pro Bowl
Rest of first round: 3 years as a starter

Overall:
Either 1 Pro Bowl OR 3 years as starter OR 6 years in the league.

This sets a low bar for each level based on draft status. More explanation given in the article.

follow @casetines

by Kenneth Arthur on Jan 6, 2012 4:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Ah good point

I read that twice and still space cased on it!

by Oliudyen on Jan 6, 2012 4:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Also on Portis

While there is always a chance, i think its more telling a tale that he didnt beat out Whitehurst for the second string spot. Though many of us are not at all the practices, and are not as well informed about how he is performing, I think the fact he ended the season still third string is a telling indictment of his abilities. After all, I think Mirer could still beat out whitehurst….

by Oliudyen on Jan 6, 2012 4:08 PM PST up reply actions  

Not totally sure I agree.

I think we signed Portis with the specific intention of teaching him how to be an NFL QB during Year 1.

After Charlie won the Week 17 St. Louis game for us last year, he was in pretty good standing with the coaches. The debacle against the Browns swiftly undid all of that of course, but I don’t think there was ever a real chance of CW sinking to 3rd string, nor was Portis ever expected to compete for that spot.

Next season should be much more telling.

by jhmg16 on Jan 6, 2012 4:21 PM PST up reply actions  

As an undrafted free agent Portis has to overcome his own stigma.

While some players like Baldwin get opportunities in practice, the 3rd QB is basically Practice Squad.
Second String gets fewer reps but atleast tehy are in the system.
I figure Portis needs to start next season second string, and either take over the role, or be close to pushing for it.
Why? ther eis a clock on him. If for some reason we dont draft a QB this year, we will be more inclined to draft one the next. Mostly becuse Tarvaris Jackson’s contract will be up.

If he doesnt make it to second string next year, he is buried behind a draft pick. His shot may be gone.

Its all my thought process, and i could be wrong, but to me. he really needed to beat out Whitehurst

by Oliudyen on Jan 6, 2012 4:59 PM PST up reply actions  

Fair points.

Had he played lights-out enough to beat Whitehurst, this whole QBOTF thing might be a lot different right now. To me, it just looks like he showed enough in his preseason game against the (Vikings? Can’t recall) to get the coaching staff to take him seriously, then disappeared for the rest of the season to work on his trade. I don’t disagree at all that he has to overcome his own stigma, I just think the timeline for that is this entire past season and the upcoming training camp/preseason. If he’s still the 3rd guy on the chart in 2012, it’s probably time to start talking to start emulating Michael Robinson.

by jhmg16 on Jan 6, 2012 5:05 PM PST up reply actions  

I might just be ignorant

But did you mean to say Greg Maddux of the NFL rather than Tommy Maddox? Oh, and great work, a nice read

by Robby The Kid on Jan 6, 2012 4:39 PM PST via Android app reply actions  

No, meant Tommy Maddox.

Because Tommy Maddox is the king of the XFL, Tom Brady is the king of the NFL. That kind of joke.

follow @casetines

by Kenneth Arthur on Jan 6, 2012 4:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Ah thanx for clearing that up ... I didn't quite get it either ...

thought you must’ve been high on glue, at least momentarily. 8)

When I refer to Tim Ruskell as "Tranny Tim" I do so ONLY in reference to his infamous use of the "Transition Tag", nothing more & nothing less. Some rather thick and uptight petty tyrants that unfortunately moonlight as fieldgull blog writers have threatened me over its use using a popup I was unable to respond to. I find such free speech censure offensive and ridiculous.

by el80ne on Jan 8, 2012 5:35 AM PST up reply actions  

I just want to say something about the name Sclark for a moment.

Years ago my roommate and I were watching Pimp My Ride and everything was Xzibit-y as usual, you know “I HEARD YOU LIKE THIS!” and “YO DOG I PUT A WHALE IN YO RIDE!”, when the guy who was getting his ride pimped took his car home and MTV interviewed his friends. One of the guys friends was named “Sclark” and it has seriously been with me ever since. It was the most ridiculous name I had ever heard. I was wondering if possibly anyone else would pick up on this.

I know I am not alone in the world only because there are TWO places I can find on the internet where I find people going “DID YOU SEE THERE WAS A GUY NAMED SCLARK?!” but only two other people on the internet. The internet isn’t big right?

Anyways, that’s my story of Sclark.

follow @casetines

by Kenneth Arthur on Jan 6, 2012 4:42 PM PST reply actions  

One of those "unhireable" names

“Hey everyone, just got a resume from a guy named Sclark! Yeah right! Nice try, accounting!”

by jhmg16 on Jan 6, 2012 5:08 PM PST up reply actions  

TJax will be our QB next year.

PC has said many times that TJax is his man. A great example is him being voted captain by the team, the coaches and the team believe in him (or they did). I don’t believe in TJax but PC does.

I honestly see us trading our first round pick for more later round picks. The only big issues we need to address are: QB, LEO and more RB depth. If there isn’t a legitimate QB or LEO when we pick I wouldn’t be surprised to see us trade out of the 1st. I think PC & JS like quanity rather than quality. They want as many picks as they can get, they enjoy trying to find gems.

If we pick up a defensive end in the 2nd then we need a QB in later rounds. I wouldn’t take Moore any earlier than the 4th round but I believe he has potential, a lot of potential.

by luciuswolfey_96 on Jan 6, 2012 4:44 PM PST reply actions  

I hope we don't roll with T-Jack.

The only issue I see with PC keeping T-Jack as our starter for next year is that Pete shortens his own leash by doing so. If he keeps T-Jack and makes no move to get better, he has no choice but to produce a 10-win season and a playoff berth. Anything less is a failure and will give fans ample (and justified) reason to call for his job due to bad judgement,

A young QB gives him much more leeway to turn in a less-than-stellar season …. and much more upside down the road. I personally would be far more accepting of Tyler Wilson leading us to 5 wins than I would Tarvaris Jackson.

by Emperor_MA on Jan 6, 2012 4:54 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Honestly.

Assuming we resign Lynch or get s similar talent level back.

We have a good enough defense. and enough weapons that any rookie should be expected to win atleast 7-9 games.
Though our Oline is terrible at pass blocking, if you are gonna make the claim to upgrade from an average QB like Tarvaris, to a potentially Elite QB, they should have enough raw talent to get 7-9 wins.

This isnt a team like Dallas worst to first. We are not gonna get the next Aikman, unless we make a blockbuster trade. We have a tremendous amount of talent on the team, and after this draft probably even more.

Rice, Baldwin, Miller are all exceptional targets for a QB. Add in Tate, Durham, Butler, and Lockette and you have some serious weapons.

by Oliudyen on Jan 6, 2012 5:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Agree completely.

However, T-Jack has shown time and again he can’t get it done when the game is on the line. In the NFL, that’s usually the case, I’m afraid….many outcomes often hinge on a final drive. T-Jack could very well net this team 5 wins next year, even though we’re extremely talented.

I’d hope a rookie could do a bit better, too. Things happen, though, and a rookie producing 5 wins is gonna be a helluva lot more forgiving to Pete’s tenure as Seahawks head coach than T-Jack doing the same.

by Emperor_MA on Jan 6, 2012 5:16 PM PST up reply actions  

I think he's squarely an 8-win QB on this team, as currently assembled.

I think his raw talent level is superior to any rookie we could hope to draft, but his decisionmaking and pocket presence are basically on par or perhaps worse than any rookie we could hope to draft. He does enough things well that we will win by multiple touchdowns 50% of the time, and he has enough shortcomings that we will let the close ones slip away.

So, yeah, I agree with you.

by jhmg16 on Jan 6, 2012 5:21 PM PST up reply actions  

although being zero for SIX in game winning drive attempts ...

made him decidedly WORSE than any rookie starting QB this year, so I disagree that he would be “on par” with any potential rookie we’d hope to start next year. And I would posit that any backup in the league should be able to do the same things in the “things he does well” category, which might best be described as “completing passes to wide receivers when the running back fails to get a 1st down”.

When I refer to Tim Ruskell as "Tranny Tim" I do so ONLY in reference to his infamous use of the "Transition Tag", nothing more & nothing less. Some rather thick and uptight petty tyrants that unfortunately moonlight as fieldgull blog writers have threatened me over its use using a popup I was unable to respond to. I find such free speech censure offensive and ridiculous.

by el80ne on Jan 8, 2012 5:47 AM PST up reply actions  

Ill give you he didnt do anything in the last drive of a few games this year.

Elite Qbs make that happen over and over again.
good and great QBs make it happen about 50% of the time.

In 36 Games played,

Drives that tied game and sent to OT:1
Game winning drives 4
Come from behind victories: 3
Total attempts. 12

Now this year he came up short with 0 game winning drives. So i can see your perspective, but 4 GWD out of 12 opportunities, is way better than average.

He did show against Atlanta he could move the ball, we were about 10 yards away from a game winner. still he fell 10 yards short, or “Big Balls” Pete make a fubar by not letting him attempt to get closer, we did have 10 seconds.

Washington, 49ers and Cardinals can be equally put on the defense for losing the game, or the offense for not scoring.

by Oliudyen on Jan 6, 2012 6:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Hauschka has got the leg, you dolt

HE’S GOT THE FUCKING LEG

Heresy grows from idleness.
Check out my story at Fanfiction.net
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7456440/1/Tide_of_War_Mass_Effect_Warhammer_Crossover

by Corax --Nevermore-- on Jan 6, 2012 10:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Where are you pulling up the stats for

game winning drive attempts? Or are you going back through all of TJack’s game logs in his career to find this out?

When I refer to Tim Ruskell as "Tranny Tim" I do so ONLY in reference to his infamous use of the "Transition Tag", nothing more & nothing less. Some rather thick and uptight petty tyrants that unfortunately moonlight as fieldgull blog writers have threatened me over its use using a popup I was unable to respond to. I find such free speech censure offensive and ridiculous.

by el80ne on Jan 8, 2012 5:49 AM PST up reply actions  

Couldn't disagree more.

All of the team captain mumbo jumbo really did happen, but I think it was just to try and galvanize the team after a short offseason with tons of uncertainty. TJ certainly was PC’s man this past season, but that was a really fucking weird season. Sure, we may draft somebody who will develop behind TJ next year, but I don’t think there is a single person in the Seahawks organization who thinks Jackson is going to get us where we want to go.

As far as trading out first pick, yeah that wouldn’t surprise me. But that wouldn’t be a reflection of the team’s confidence in Jackson, just their confidence in talent evaluation and player development.

by jhmg16 on Jan 6, 2012 5:12 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't want him to start, but I think he will. I agree with you on Jackson being a 8 win QB.

We signed him to a two year contract so he is gone after this season. We won’t get a super-start QB this year (unless we trade every pick for the next 8000 years) , so I think we will probably stick with him for this season. What other options do we have in FA? I know Flynn is available but I see Cleveland jumping at him.

by luciuswolfey_96 on Jan 6, 2012 5:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Man I wish I could get money bet against your sure statement about TJax. I'd even give you odds.

ONLY IN SEATTLE:
By swaggering could I never thrive,
For the rain, it raineth every day.

by Hawksince77 on Jan 6, 2012 5:41 PM PST up reply actions  

Meaning this statement:

“TJax will be our QB next year.”

And that’s what I heard from PC. He explained this past season as unusual given the lockout, and his naming TJax the starter to bolster his confidence. Next year the competition will be wide open, and I believe it.

Seattle will draft a QB – maybe more than one. Although more likely they draft one and sign a FA. Then the draft pick, the FA, CW, Portis and TJax compete for the starting role.

If TJax starts, it’s because he beat the other guys out for the position. That could happen, but I certainly hope they can bring a better talent to bear during the offseason.

ONLY IN SEATTLE:
By swaggering could I never thrive,
For the rain, it raineth every day.

by Hawksince77 on Jan 6, 2012 5:44 PM PST up reply actions  

That's NOT what I heard from PC.

jeez

ONLY IN SEATTLE:
By swaggering could I never thrive,
For the rain, it raineth every day.

by Hawksince77 on Jan 6, 2012 5:44 PM PST up reply actions  

I would not be surprised at all if TJax is the starter at least at the begining of the year.

Unless the Hawks get Flynn or Luck there are really no other QBs available who will be ready to start week 1 next season.

by wetzelcoal on Jan 6, 2012 6:38 PM PST up reply actions  

The tide of Flynn is growing...

…into a fucking Tsunami….

Heresy grows from idleness.
Check out my story at Fanfiction.net
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7456440/1/Tide_of_War_Mass_Effect_Warhammer_Crossover

by Corax --Nevermore-- on Jan 6, 2012 10:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Dude, I AM part of the tsunami in question

YEAAAAH BABY

Heresy grows from idleness.
Why get Matt Flynn?
"Also, for what it’s worth, if we get Flynn, New England and Detroit are on the schedule!" - SSreporters

by Corax --Nevermore-- on Jan 7, 2012 3:40 PM PST up reply actions  

The other possibility is that the Seahawks draft a QB in the 1st round...

…(not Luck or RGIII) and PC does what he has with all his firsts rounders: makes them immediate starters (Okung/Thomas/Carpenter).

When asked whether a rookie QB could start his first year, PC spoke for five minutes in the affirmative, and how he has changed his mind on the question since Flacco/Ryan came into the league.

This scenario would depend on their being a QB at 11/12 they like. And for those of you stumped by the PC/JS draft last year, where they seemed to reach on just about every pick (Carpenter, Wright, Durham) they showed their willingness to draft who they wanted, regardless of where anyone else had them ranked.

ONLY IN SEATTLE:
By swaggering could I never thrive,
For the rain, it raineth every day.

by Hawksince77 on Jan 7, 2012 6:27 AM PST up reply actions  

Last paragraph is why I love the front office.

A couple coworkers (Steeler fans) were making fun of every selection the Hawks made last year. I basically told them what you said above, we draft who we like regardless of where the “experts” rank the players.

by sadface on Jan 7, 2012 1:50 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

although seriously ...

he was voted captain after being anointed starter by PC and the starting QB is naturally going to be voted captain of the offense.

And to be fair, any QB that leads the team to victories will earn the trust of the coach and the team unless he’s the rare case of being a Willie Beamer type.

When I refer to Tim Ruskell as "Tranny Tim" I do so ONLY in reference to his infamous use of the "Transition Tag", nothing more & nothing less. Some rather thick and uptight petty tyrants that unfortunately moonlight as fieldgull blog writers have threatened me over its use using a popup I was unable to respond to. I find such free speech censure offensive and ridiculous.

by el80ne on Jan 8, 2012 5:53 AM PST up reply actions  

I think you've got the analogy backwards.

Drafting a QB when the value isn’t there is the lottery ticket. Taking the best player available is getting a job.

by Fumanchuchu on Jan 7, 2012 1:38 PM PST reply actions  

I think you misunderstand the anaolgy.

Or at least the point he made about how impossible it is to draft another Brady, ever,but fans still harp on following what New England did. A feat even the Pats will never reproduce.

by sadface on Jan 7, 2012 1:55 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Tavaris might start next year

But know that they ARE combing the earth for his replacement

by Richard fg7 on Jan 10, 2012 11:55 PM PST reply actions  

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