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Where Will the Seahawks' Roster Churn Hit? Linebacker Edition

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This is the fourth in a series of posts designed to build on Davis' theory of the Green Bay Roster Model and its concepts therein. In this theory, there will be a roster churn every year, averaging about 13 players a year. This series expands on those hypothetical concepts and asks, where will the churn hit?

In my first three installments one , two and three, I talked about the wide receivers, the offensive line and defensive line, respectively. I want to talk about linebackers in this edition. In my previous article (three), I talked about the Seahawks 4-3 Over defense from this season, and here is a nice 4-3 Tech chart for those who still don't have it memorized. The main point about the Over from this season is that the linebackers often shift to the strong side. This means that the Sam is usually on the line of scrimmage, the Mike and Will at traditional depth, often gives a look of a 5-2. Its a very subtle, but very important, difference from a 3-4 with both outside linebackers playing up.

I say all of this because the play of the linebackers in our defense can easily be understated. The defensive line often receives the lions' share of praise for run stopping abilities, because in essence the defense is set up to deny the run, but that does not mean linebackers are throwaway positions here.

The line is indeed key in stopping the inside run, and forcing runners to attempt to bounce the ball outside, but this is one aspect where our linebackers were inadequate, especially against shiftier and faster backs. Our linebackers simply did not have the speed needed to contain the shiftier backs on the edges.

Another flaw was that as often as our linebackers were called on to blitz as a whole we did not get enough pressure on the QB through sacks and QB hits. Though this is often attributed to scheme or lack of a quality 3-tech, I believe that it is actually inefficient linebacker blitzes.

I came to this conclusion because our secondary blitzes used so heavily in 2010 were nullified by keeping Earl Thomas in center field most of the year and rarely calling on Kam Chancellor, Atari Bigby, Roy Lewis and Kennard Cox. This meant that the majority of the blitzes were called for linebackers. The Seahawks got nine sacks from the linebackers out of approximately 364 (league average) blitzes. That means linebackers got a sack once every 40.4 blitzes, QB hits from the linebacker position were equally dismal.

Linebackers were also an Achilles' heal in 3rd down coverage, having mediocre success against tight ends and being completely destroyed by running backs, and often those completions to tight ends and running backs were on third down, extending drives.

All of that being said, its easier to hide mediocre linebackers on this team, so losing anyone besides Wright wouldn't hurt too much. With several free agents this year we have expect the possibility of a big shake up in the linebacker corps. Lets look at who is staying who is likely gone and who is on the bubble.

Star-divide

K.J. Wright- I have been KJ wrights biggest detractor this year, but don't let that fool you, he has top level talent, and with a few more pounds could ease into the Brian Urlacher prototypical MLB type role. He gained valuable insights while playing outside linebacker this year, but he studied both inside and outside all year. As an outside linebacker he is a tad slow (4.75), and had his issues in coverage, especially play action, he was a weak point on the defense, something not too uncommon for a rookie.

His coaches praised him on how quickly he learns and how he rarely makes the same mistake twice. That is what you want out of a top talent and something that was missing from Aaron Curry. As an inside linebacker his speed is above average and only slightly slower than Tatupu (4.65) He is strong and a heavy hitter, he would bring a quick mind and good range at a level not seen since Tats legs started going. Barring injury, K.J. is looking at at least three more years as a starting linebacker for the Hawks.

David Hawthorne – Has played well in replacing Tatupu in the middle, but he was slowed with a leg injury, it showed. Hawthorne was slow all year and though he played about average for the position, he is slightly undersized at 6" and 248. Being a couple inches short and a few pounds light hasn't stopped Hawthorne from seizing every second of playing time, that might come to a close in 2012 - free agency and injuries could usher him out the door, and with KJ wright being flexible and talented, the Hawks can draft any LB position and know they have a spot for him.

Pete saying he wants to get faster at linebacker could surely spell doom for Hawthorne since his replacement is either already on the team, or just a draft pick away. I believe he will get an offer from the Hawks, but one he doesn't like and will hit the market. At only 26 years old he should get a few suitors for his talents though.

Leroy Hill- Leroy was part of a very talented trio, often considered the most talented by fellow players, that is until drug-related and domestic abuse cases started deteriorating his focus. He was completely out of football in 2010 (on I.R), and having played most of his pro career at Sam, was moved to Will in 2011. In my opinion, he could be considered our best linebacker, though all three are very close talent-wise at the moment. Hill was our top linebacker in both sacks and QB hits and racked up 89 tackles, showing his versatility.

Hill looked focused and almost relieved to be back on the football field this year. As a free agent he could be back next year, or hit the market. Hill is in the same boat as Heater and will probably get a low-ball offer. At 29 though, the days of him getting franchise money are gone, but he should have several suitors for this versatile sledgehammer. He showed this year he could be willing to take small money to stay with Seattle though.

David Vobora- Vobora had a promising start to his NFL career earning a starting spot in 2009 for the Rams, but by late September he was sitting at home due to NFL's substance abuse violation. Vobora then sued and won a settlement of $5.4 million, bounced around and landed here, where I think he has a promising future both as a special teams ace but possibly working his way up to challenge for a starting spot. At 25 he, should just about be hitting his peak, and considering how cheap we signed him for, we could lock him up into a couple of year deal. He is cheap and effective, the kinda guys JSPC love.

Heath Farwell- Was brought in mostly for his special teams talent, he plays at 235, very light for a linebacker, and being 30 doesn't help his cause. If anything, he might get a nod as a special teamer - that is his role - and thinking about him on the defensive side of the ball is probably a fantasy. Considering his age and how well Vobora played, expect Farwell to be cut, and kept on speed dial.

Malcolm Smith- is another smaller linebacker used mostly on special teams. He does pop in the game every now and then, but mostly received playing time more because of lack of depth than for actual talent. That being said, he should have one final chance next year, make it or break it time. Signed through 2015, but non-guaranteed money and cheap at that.

Mike Morgan- made the team as an emergency stopgap at only 226 pounds he doesn't have the meat to take an every down beating and was most likely brought up by former USC coach Carroll as nothing but a stop-gap.

Adrian Moten- made a few special teams plays for the Colts then was cut for disciplinary reasons, picked up as emergency stop-gap when injuries occurred, would be surprised if he is even invited to camp.

Jameson Konz - there is something about Jemeson Konz that makes Pete drool, and as a result he has the kid playing TE, DE and OLB just to keep him around. Unfortunately, Konz is all raw athleticism (6-4 235, 46 inch vert, 4.38 40). Konz will be in camp, and could be the genetic freak we need at Will. Did I mention this guy has almost 4 feet of vertical? He has something to prove when he gets there, though its hard to say how much leash he has.(contract details unknown)

Matt McCoy was a big part of our 3rd down packages and when he went down it hurt us. At almost 30 though, McCoy could be looking at a churn, as fresh faces come in. He is smaller and lighter 6', 230 more like a linebacker/safety hybrid, so special teams and third downs seem to be his calling. He might make it another year or two before the churn catches up.

My Recap:

Will make the team: Wright, Konz, Smith, Vabora

Free agency bubble: Hill, Hawthorne, McCoy

Performance/Age bubble: Farwell

Will be gone: Morgan, Moten

So far it looks like PCJS have a preference for smaller faster linebackers, Wright being the exception, because almost every LB pick up is smaller and faster. The Hawks would love to pick up a proto-typical OLB though with size, speed, power and a good grasp of the game. If there is one available come draft time, I dont think they would hesitate to pull the trigger.

Having three average to above average linebackers doesnt exactly handicap the Seahawks, and with other glaring weaknesses the Seahawks are not forced to draft a linebacker, the free agent market is another option, though one probably one with less talent than the draft. Outside of Mario Williams (really more of a DE than a OLB) the free agent list is topped by solid reliable guys but not a lot of flash. This almost assure the Seahawks either grab talent in the draft, or make due with what they have.

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Good writeup.

I believe Hawthorne’s knee is more troubling than he and the staff are letting on. I do wonder how this will affect the team’s stance on him offer-wise. I’d like to see him back, but only at the right amount, even though we have a nice amount of cap space.

I’ve always loved Hill and I truly believe he might possibly be the most underrated Hawk of the last decade. There were some games last year where he looked like 2007-2008 Hill with his vicious hits and perfectly timed blitzes. His zone coverage has come a ways since his early days, but it’s still average at best. I too would like to see him back, but nothing beyond 3 years.

Oh, man. It's my mom. She looks pissed.

by CharlieConway on Feb 12, 2012 12:02 PM PST reply actions  

Thanks!

Good point about the zone Coverage, he was pretty mediorce, maybe one reason he was blitzed. Im not a huge fan of zones except for change up plays. I think Mora’s terrible zone scheme really makes me want to vomit when I see a zone, so maybe I subliminally block them out of thought…
Hill has had an up and down season. He has had some nice games, and some games where he seemed to disappear. He is defiantely a much better strong-side backer than weak-side backer. This could be the critical point in bringing him back, they may say no at Will, yes at strong.(though it seems PCJS really like players who can play multiple positions.)

by Oliudyen on Feb 12, 2012 12:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, and with the way they had success with Wright as a mid-round pick

It wouldn’t surprise me if they let one of Hawthorne and Hill walk, and then replace the him with a 3rd-4th rounder.

If Hawthorne walks, I imagine we move Wright back inside. If so, that allows Hill the chance to move over to SLB, rookie/FA takes over at WLB.

Oh, man. It's my mom. She looks pissed.

by CharlieConway on Feb 12, 2012 1:02 PM PST up reply actions  

no game log according to Yahoo sports

I guess you could argue he was in football even though he actually play for the team

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7274/gamelog;ylt=AjOD1E1Ysk6Fp0bI12bKX3.uLYF?year=2010

One could argue not playing a whole year is out of football too.
The real point there, contextually was that he didnt play last year and was out of position, and still did a good job.

by Oliudyen on Feb 12, 2012 4:23 PM PST up reply actions  

I thought "out of football" was generally understood as

“sitting at home without a job hoping the phone rings”

Can I use it in a sentence? Sure! “Terrell Owens was out of football in 2011.”

by jhmg16 on Feb 13, 2012 8:53 AM PST up reply actions   2 recs

I think Peterson played WLB

I remember there was some talk about Leroy being a better pass-rusher from the WLB and whether he would regain his 2007 form with him moving back to the position (from SLB)

This fan-made depth chart from 2008 shows Leroy at SAM and Julian at WLB.

by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Feb 13, 2012 10:17 AM PST up reply actions  

Aren't we a 4-3 Under, not a 4-3 Over?

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2011/5/31/2191847/the-pete-carroll-4-3-under-defense-part-i-an-introduction

and this bit is a little confusing:

In a traditional 4-3 Over the two Dts line up across from the C (Often Called the 0 gap, making the DT a true NT) and G

You can only really have one 0-tech, as they tend to be very fat and there’s only room for one (and 4-3 defenses typically eschew them for the 1-tech and 3-tech DTs).

None of this really undermines your very good piece (in a very good series) of roster analysis, but it just stuck out at me.

by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Feb 12, 2012 10:53 PM PST reply actions  

Last year we were 4-3 under, this year we were 4-3 over

In this case you have Wright playing on the line on the strong side of the offense. This is the Over, and the other two backers shift depending on a second TE, or strong or weak I formations.

In an Under, you slide the backers towards the weakside.
If you get a chance to rewatch a few games, it really pops out at you, especially on run downs, because Wright sets a very nice edge, Curry wasnt terrible at setting an edge, but he often misread a play and gave up the edge too often, wright doesnt do that he reads run very well. Play action is his weakness right now, something expected of a rookie.

Iit was suppose to read, they have two DTs line up across the center and guard. with a little tidbit about DT and NT, the extra kinda added a weird unintended break, but I see where you are coming from.

an unalligned 4-3 does usually use a 1 tech, but in a under or over, they usually line up like a 5-2 with the big boy directly over center. In Carrolls system they shade into a 1 tech. To me this is Odd, not because of scheme, but because you shade the DT and then have him 2 gap, where lining up over the center would give him better leverage to hold both gaps. This might be an adjustment due to expected double teams. In a 1 gap, shoot the gap scheme, shading makes sense. (In essense trying to split the defenders)

by Oliudyen on Feb 13, 2012 12:17 AM PST up reply actions  

Pete describes the 4-3 Under here:
The SLB plays the tight end in man-to-man with this front using outside leverage as he is aligned in a loose 9 technique. The SLB can not get hooked as he is playing outside leverage on all blocks. The nose tackle (NT) is in a 1 technique to the strong side. The defensive tackle (DT) is in a three technique to the weak side. The ends (DE) are in a 5 technique on the offensive tackles. The MLB has responsibility for the strong side B gap and the WLB for the weak side A gap.

http://trojanfootballanalysis.com/?p=308

and it looks like this:

Obviously, we use a lot of non-base defensive packages but I’m having trouble telling the difference between this and your description of the 4-3 Over.

by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Feb 13, 2012 10:07 AM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, that's an Over shift.

Note the wide gap between Clemons (weak end, on the bottom) and who I presume to be Mebane at the nose. The Under would have the 3-tech next to Clemons. The safeties are lined up slightly weird in this particular shot.

by bewrong on Feb 13, 2012 1:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Admittedly

I have more to learn about how the two defenses line up.

by Oliudyen on Feb 22, 2012 12:46 PM PST up reply actions  

They were a little bit of everything this year.

Under, over, and in several games towards the end of the season they played a 3-4 in spots.

by Nate Dogg on Feb 13, 2012 10:43 AM PST up reply actions  

But this is sort of true for most teams, right?

The big question is whether the base defense is a 4-3 Under or 4-3 Over and what that means for the future of the roster.

by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Feb 13, 2012 1:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, I think they were pretty consistently an under team the year before.

I don’t know which was the base package last year and I don’t know if it matters beyond their willingness to mix it up. My guess is the take away is that they’ll fit scheme to players over the other way around, so the talent that’s available might have more impact on what their base package is going forward.

by Nate Dogg on Feb 13, 2012 2:25 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I believe we mostly used the 4-3 Under for Aaron Curry situations.

And we all know how that worked out.

Don't be an idiot. If an idiot would do that, then don't do it. Muahahahaaha back on twitter

by RagingAlot on Feb 13, 2012 3:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Curry got too much damn water in it, that's what happened

tasted like some sort of chemical brew

Heresy grows from idleness.
Why get Matt Flynn?
"Also, for what it’s worth, if we get Flynn, New England and Detroit are on the schedule!" - SSreporters

by Corax --Nevermore-- on Feb 13, 2012 3:20 PM PST up reply actions  

Malcolm Smith...

I don’t get this line:

Malcolm Smith- is another smaller linebacker used mostly on special teams, he does pop in the game every now and then, but mostly received playing time because of lack of depth than for actual talent, that being said he should have one final chance next year, make it or break it time

Wasn’t he a rookie last year? Seems quite a stretch that for a second year player for a low round draft pick with speed that it’s his make it or break year, especially if he’s contributing on special teams.

Anyone that thinks Yuniesky Betancourt outplayed anyone last year, you're a moron, and I hope your genes are stricken from the world to prevent further breeding.

by Gaude on Feb 13, 2012 7:47 AM PST reply actions  

Respose to above and below- In the NFL

226 pound linebackers get eaten for breakfast. He has to put on weight (about 15 pounds )and prove he can keep his speed in order to have a chance at playing at linebacker. At just a hair over 6’ he is sized like a safety.

Malcolm smith is a good athelete, so dont take this as he is anything less, but Konz is a genetic freak, rivaling Julian Peterson.
Konz is 6’4" 234 pounds, and is faster than smith by a tenth of a second in the 40. Konz has 7 more inches of vertical.

We, in essence had 3 NFL slightly undersized Linebackers starting, and in my opinion all were playing out of optimal playing position, then when injuries occured, smith didnt take the reins. In a season where the likes of Sherman and Wright took control Smith did not. He already knows the system, last year was his 5th year in the system, I believe, with Carroll. He shouldnt have a big learning curve. Why didn’t smith get more reps? That is one reason I feel this could be, as far as linebacker play goes, a defining year for him.
Konz on the other hand went to Kent state, and didnt have 4 years with Carroll in college.
Every year there are young players who should be given a chance and arn’t. Looking at the roster, Smith does not hit me as a “project player” he really should have had an immediate impact, and he didnt. Konz was and still is a raw player that could be given more opportunities.
The churn will hit, people gotta go, Smith really looked like a player that if he doesnt perform will be a gonner.

by Oliudyen on Feb 14, 2012 1:55 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

ACL injury

It remains to be seen if and when Konz will be ready to return from the ACL tear in his knee. He’s obviously rehabbing it every day, but he’ll likely miss OTAs. He had the surgery in late October so he could be ready by July.

Another aspect of Konz that the Seahawks really like is his versatility. They had him playing multiple positions on offense and defense when he was on the practice squad for the first few games last season. Plus he obviously starts on on special teams. Guys who can play multiple positions are really valuable when injuries start piling up – see Julian Edelman for the Patriots.

by BushLite on Feb 14, 2012 12:06 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

It stands to reckon as a low end roster filler, it provides excellent scout team versatility...

The athletic upside is also so tremendous as to garner extra chances to develop over a longer arc than many bigger-school-but-lower-upside-potential players.

I've put away the whiskey and the chainsaw and gone responsible. I'd like to say "Danny Kelly made me do it!" but that would be a lie. I chose to shave, put on a suit and tie and pretend I'm more important than I really am...

by Tyler Jorgensen on Feb 19, 2012 9:58 PM PST up reply actions  

You would be quite the GM expecting your 7th rounders to make an immediate impact

Jokes aside, look at the big picture. Yes, he did play in Pete Carroll’s defense in college (and just to be nit-picky, last year was his 4th season with Carroll because Carroll left during his senior season), but does that mean we should expect him to step up in lead when he was a 7th rounder? And it’s even generous to call him a 7th rounder considering he was a compensatory, 242nd pick in the draft. Yes, he is undersized, but is still the same height as Hawthorne and is 1" shorter and 10 lbs lighter than HIll. He’s definitely got speed on both of them and like we’ve all been saying, that is something we’re looking for more of this season. And further, having an undersized quick guy like Smith could compliment KJ Wright should he move to the middle (something we sorta see out of ET/KC but no I’m not making a talent comparison). The point is, his size shouldn’t necessarily deter us from playing him and expecting him to do well. He’s a 7th round 22 year old and I think we’ll see him around for more than this season regardless if he “makes it”.

by SeattleAztec on Feb 14, 2012 3:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Hawthorne is undersized

the fact that Smith is smaller, makes hime even more undersized.
In his current state he could play 3rd down coverage type and special teams.
Hawthorne is showing the wear already, Smith really has to either find a niche, or put on weight. eitehr way if he doesnt do either, in my opinion, he will be on the way out.

Also I know you were joking about 7th rounders playing, but when you think about 7th rounders they generally fall into one of two categories.
The first is phenominal athletic ability but limited expereince, this is Konz, Sherman, ect. They hope in a few years they can develop into phenominal football players.
The second is a player who doesnt have a ton of upside, but could contribute right away.
I see Smith in this category. He isnt a physical freak, and he is undersized, and one of several linebackers that could bring extra speed to the position. I think Vabora, McCoy, Morgan, Konz and smith all had sub 4.6 40s so speed isnt lacking, its Speed and Size matched with “Football Smarts.” We dont have a complete “Backer” like that.

by Oliudyen on Feb 14, 2012 5:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Seattle's linebackers are hardly undersized.

For one, Hawthorne is 6’0"/246 – almost exactly the same size as Ray Lewis, and bigger than Curtis Lofton, Patrick Willis, James Farrior, London Fletcher, E.J. Henderson, Rocky McIntosh, Bart Scott, James Laurinaitis, Paul Posluszny, Stephen Tulloch, and Jerod Mayo, among others. I mean, Zach Thomas was one of the best MLB ever, and he was 5’11"/240.

Leroy Hill (6’1"/238) is actually almost the prototypical size for a 4-3 OLB. See: Lance Briggs, James Anderson, Chad Greenway, DeAndre Levy, Justin Durant, Chris Chamberlain, Sean Weatherspoon, Lawrence Timmons, Will Witherspoon, and DJ Williams. KJ Wright is a pretty big LB, definitely on the upper end of average, at about 6’4"/250.

So Malcolm Smith isn’t fighting an uphill battle just because of his size. He could remain 6’1"/226 and be an excellent starting WLB. In fact, there’s quite a precedent for sub-230 OLB’s, especially on the weakside. Jacquian Williams, Akeem Jordan, Geno Hayes, Michael Boley, Jordan Senn, Ernie Sims, and Daryl Washington are all under 230, and all spent time starting at some point this season. At WLB, speed and sound tackling are the most important responsibilities, and size is pretty irrelevant.

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by Matt Erickson on Feb 15, 2012 12:21 AM PST up reply actions  

OK

Zach Thomas also ran a 4.4 fourty, about 0.25 seconds fater than Hawthornes 4.65, he also had 133 takcle rookie campaign. That is gonna help, but the middle linebacker is going to take a beating. Saying he is the best MLB of all time is kinda rediculous. Come on, you are gonna put him over Nitchke, Butkus, Lambert, R. Lewis, Huff, Sam Mills, Urlacher, Bednarik, Singletary?

He is more in a lower group with Romanowski and Norton

Lofa was 6’0" 238 and he was undersized, the beating took its toll on him.

The prototypical ILB is 6’3"-6’4" and about 260-270. Does this mean that its impossible to be good if you are undersized? NO, Hell Spud Webb never lived up to 5’7" and he won a dunk contest, does that mean the proto-typical PG isnt 6’1"? The prototypical WR is 6’2" 220-230, I could cite a million smaller ones. The big difference is MLB/ILBs take a beating, atleast if they only took a collision in half of the snaps its like 400 hits a season!

One thing you are also missing about size, is that Clemons is undersized, and placing a smaller Will behind him will easily turn into a weakness. Weight has two purposes, to prevent injury and to avoid being pushed around. Clemons is pretty good about sealing a corner, but place a smaller easily moved LB behind him and a strong run defense can turn to butter with a hot knife.

Leroy Hill had 89 tackles and since we are trying to get better at Linebacker not worse, we really should use examples of people who perform in the general neightborhood, even though the seahawks really spread the majority of tackles over 5 guys (3 LB and 2 S) Tackles are not everything, but they should be in the general area.

Jacquian Williams is a rookie, how will he stand up to 3-4 years of the abuse he had 78 tackles?
Daryl Washington had a pretty good year, his sophmore season, after 4 seasons lets see how his performance stands up.
Akeem Jordan torn Labrum, hyperextended knee and bone bruises, concussion, only 2 healthy seasons in 5. also 40 tackles…
Geno Hayes- 64 tackles….
Jordan Senn 121 tacklesin 3 years is an average of 40.3 tackles a year.
Earnie Sims great first three years then BOOM injuries and drop in ability.

Micheal Boley is more of a poster child since he has had 5 healthy seasons, but only 1 in the last 3.

As for Smith, I have stated its not just his size, but his lack of earning playing time even though he knows the system. You CAN use a 220~ pound LB sure, but its very rare, even more rare that injuries wont take their toll.

Here is the dish though, there is only 5 starting linebackers under 230 (about 5 %). None of them had more than 89 tackles, most of them were not even close or were a stretch to call a starter.
Out of those 5, how many are on top 10 defenses? how many are even on top 20 defenses?

Another stat is that out of the 108 starting linebackers, only 13 were under 6’1" so about 12% of all linebackers are under 6’1, Hawthorne is in that catergory so I’ll call him undersized. HIll is on the bottom end of height and weight. as a whole he is slightly small. as for Wright, he definately isnt undersized. But all three linebackers are slow (All three reportedly hitting a low of 4.65, by NFLcraftscout.com).

Malcolm Smith is both under 6’1 AND under 230.

Also some of your examples are kinda stretching it, for example James Laurinaitis is 6’2" 250 to me that isnt in the same ball park with 6’ 245, 2 inches in height is significant in sports, though like speed, its not the end all be all.

I really think saying that size is irrelevant is incorrect on so many levels. Some players are special, ill give you that. It really boils down to several key points. 1. Smith is small, I think I have proven that. 2. Smith even though he knows the system has not proven to be “special” yet. Why is Pete waiting? He could have plugged him in and moved the lineup around, but didnt. That to me seems to decidely lack “special” factor. (Same coach who didnt have any qualms about starting Okung, Moffitt, Carpenter, Sherman, Browner, Thomas in their first years) 3. Just beacuse Pete says he wants to get faster at LB doesnt mean he wants to get smaller. Infact I would almost say that Pete likes bigger more athletic players. 4. Smith was drafted in the 7th round. 5. He isnt the fastest linebacker in the group, he isnt the most skilled, he isnt the most athletic, or the most experienced. He isnt the tallest or heaviest. 6. he already has shown to have multiple injuries. 7. Its my opinion, it has a reason for it, and im sticking to it.
all this cries to me its prove it or lose it time.

by Oliudyen on Feb 16, 2012 2:57 AM PST up reply actions  

I find it hard to believe that Hill, Hawthorne, and Wright combined to be an

average to above average LB corps. Speed, pass rush, cover ability for all three seem below average to my eye. I am not sure any one of them has any elite level talent. The only thing they all seem to be above average at is tackling technique, and while Heater seems the best of the three at tackling, by NFL standards he is not great or elite. Wright has more upside because of his age/rookieness, and looked better with more experience.

An added note about Malcolm Smith, if you think Konz is sure to be around another year, why do you think Smith would be cut loose after only year two? He was a dynamic playmaker at USC, and while PC doesn’t have blind loyalty to USC grads, he certainly does have loyalty to the PAC10 talent he was impressed with – Lynch, Unger, Sherman, McCoy (TE). Smith likely would have been a 4-5th round selection if not for the health condition finally diagnosed near the end of his college career. After dealing with the health issue, he was able to put on a lot of lost weight, and likely will be able to tack on another 10-15 lbs of playing weight.

Smashmouth is the new sexy!

by pqlqi on Feb 13, 2012 10:37 AM PST reply actions  

I agree

Lots of room to upgrade at linebacker. Effective pass rush up front would make them look better.

by jhmg16 on Feb 13, 2012 10:46 AM PST up reply actions  

A portion of the reply is above

As for how effective our linebackers are, I think linebackers are one of the hardest players to evaluate. The most prevelent stat for a linebacker is generally tackles, but that doesnt really show how great a linebacker is. Our linebackers dont get glitzy sacks, and we dont filter all of the runs to one linebacker either, so tackles are going to be pretty even across the board with average talent. They are not great in coverage, but atleast against TEs they were average.

Hawthorne doesnt have one thing he is bad at, he is only average at a lot of stuff, and does have very good hands for a linebacker. Hill is definately above average in skill, though both have diminishing speed issues. Wright doesnt have the speed to play outside, and really should be an inside backer.

I cant say the backers really excited me this year, but i cant really look back, except on third downs in passing situations and say that there was a lot of let downs. Thomas and Chancellor made a lot of tackles this year, but most of them were not “third tier” tackles. most were made in the linebacker area, and the LBs didnt give up a lot of huge runs inside(again speed issues lent to some big runs outside.)

I agree there is room to improve, in pass rush and coverage, but not a ton of room to improve in run stopping.

by Oliudyen on Feb 14, 2012 2:06 AM PST up reply actions  

I've never agreed with a Field Gulls article more than this one...

No idea if that is good. Enjoyed it though…

Confuscius say- "Baseball wrong. Man with four balls cannot walk."

by Outside Contain on Feb 13, 2012 11:06 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

Oh I forgot.

I am a huge Farwell fan so there is room for improvment still, just saying…

Confuscius say- "Baseball wrong. Man with four balls cannot walk."

by Outside Contain on Feb 13, 2012 11:07 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't see Wright as an Urlacher type MLB.

I like Wright quite a bit, but Urlacher was a converted safety. Urlacher excels at dropping back into coverage while some of Wright’s biggest struggles came in coverage last season.

by Nate Dogg on Feb 13, 2012 12:31 PM PST reply actions  

Good assessment on our LBs, been looking for this recently

However, I’d have to disagree with your judgement of Malcolm Smith. I don’t understand the whole ‘make it or break it’ in his second year in the league. I believe he was injured off and on for most of last season. That may be due to his lack of size or the shortened offseason, time will tell. But IIRC, Pete Carroll made a point about trying to play Smith more next year in his off-season interview. I know we can’t expect a Kam Chancellor for every rookie we put behind an experienced vet (Smith behind Hill resembled Chancellor behind Milloy the previous year IMO) but I wouldn’t be surprised to see it happen. He doesn’t have great height and could put on about 10 lbs this offseason, but I like Smith’s speed and coverage abilities and think he has a shot at taking over at WILL next season.

by SeattleAztec on Feb 14, 2012 12:44 AM PST reply actions  

You could very well be right.

The LB corp really to me is average all around (in its current incarnation)
I did a partial reply above as to why I feel this next season will be a make or break it season for Smith, but I dont think he is terrible. Just really undersized, and really should have made an impact more than he did considering his expereince in the system. He is just, well, average. He isnt a diamond in the rough, and with guys like Vabora and Konz fighting for the spot, and IF we resign either or both Hawthorne or Hill, and we draft linebackers, well someone is gonna have to go.

by Oliudyen on Feb 14, 2012 2:12 AM PST up reply actions  

You forgot to mention Allen Bradford

It was mentioned late last season that he will be converting to a full time linebacker. He is 5’ 11’ 240 lbs and runs about a 4.55. He might end up on the practice squad again this year to complete his transition but could see time later in the year if we have injury problems again.

by eohawkfan on Feb 14, 2012 5:42 AM PST reply actions  

Yes

Mostly because i havent read about any sources other than Bradford saying he is switching full time.
he is a little heavier and slower than the majority of the linebackers we have have, but is faster than all of the starters. He is intriguing, Ill have to wait and see something form him before I could make any judgements.

by Oliudyen on Feb 14, 2012 2:54 PM PST up reply actions  

This team has interesting guys all over the roster .

Michael Morgan is one that if he had a little help from the almighty could surprise.

by Richard fg7 on Feb 14, 2012 5:23 PM PST reply actions  

I agree

Here is the trap though, how long do you wait to have someone fulfill interesting potential, and where do you go for the upgrade?

by Oliudyen on Feb 14, 2012 5:25 PM PST up reply actions  

FA is the answer (either our own or someone else's).

If you have a Malcolm Smith, a Jameson Konz, and a Allen Bradford as depth/future potential starters you have to have a vet FA in case they don’t cut it. That’s why I see Hill getting a modest deal to stay put and compete for his job. If these youngsters don’t cut it – oh well, acquire the potential future starter next year. Hill is going to be an adequate to above average starter for the next 3-5 years anyway if we choose to keep him. He’s a team guy and would probably continue to help grow whoever is trying to displace him and likely benefit from the annual competition.

by HI Hawk 808 on Feb 16, 2012 4:22 AM PST up reply actions  

Good Point

Though dont forget about David Vobora. He has already proven, at least to the woefull Rams to be starter quality. He did get just about as much playing time as Smith and Farwell as a backer.

I hope Hill resigns, plays strong side backer again, Wright moves to the middle, and we either draft an elite talent at backer (doesnt have to be a high pick) or get faster with out giving up too much size/football savy.

I dont hate Hawthorne or Hill, I am excited though at an opportunity to upgrade the position as a whole. Wright seems locked in for a minimum of three more years, getting another above average backer would be a nice addition to an already very nice defense.

by Oliudyen on Feb 16, 2012 11:00 AM PST up reply actions  

Forget about David Vobora?

Not gonna happen.

"The time has come," the Walrus said, "to talk of many things."

by shams on Feb 16, 2012 12:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Good Post, thought provoking

Don’t forget, McCoy was primarily special teams ace, and Farwell replaced him quite nicely, leading the league in special teams tackles despite only playing in 11 games. Not sure everyone realizes they were teammates and classmates at San Diego State, and are essentially the same height/weight. Apparently virtually interchangeable. They may both wind up on speed dial.

I’m not seeing Hawthorne or Hill as long-term big 2nd contract guys in Seattle, so I expect both will go in FA. Vobora could stick due to contract and age as a low-risk backup. I really think we’ll see FA activity and one early draft pick to fill the starting LB positions along with Wright who probably takes over MLB.

by diehard82 on Feb 16, 2012 11:40 AM PST reply actions  

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