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Zach Miller, John Carlson and the Value of the Chip-and-Release

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This story is kind of about two things: casting forward to the Superbowl, as I'm looking for points of interest in this snoozefest of a matchup, and furthering the discussion on the receiver depth of the Seattle Seahawks.

The Patriots team is of interest because it's such a weird team, cobbled together from different concepts, and flexing in and out of them as the situation calls for. Last time they played against the Giants, the Patriots mostly played 4-3 defense, but they dominated the championship game using mostly 3-4, and I expect them to roll out mostly 3-4 again. That brings up a point on defensive designations that...uh...I'll have to come back to next week.

I bring them up here to note something that pretty much everyone knows: when they last played the Giants, the Patriots were a 3-wide, passing offense. This time, the Giants offense is much more predicated on these 3-wide passing concepts, while the Patriots play a majority of their snaps out of two tight end sets, and have a much stronger, reliable running game, led by Lawfirm. In those concepts, this Patriots offense is fairly close to what I would guess Pete envisioned when he hired Jeremy Bates to be his offensive coordinator (but only in those specific aspects). And the Patriots showed what a monster truck of an offense this can be, when you have the personnel.

As Cosell discusses in his Superbowl pick post, the NFL often boils down to a simple numbers game. With the new model of tight end becoming a bigger factor in the NFL, many of them converted basketball players, it is tempting to view them as nothing more than wide receivers under another name, but that ignores their value as both blockers and receivers. To replace a single Gronkowski, you'd need both an extra blocker (tight end or extra offensive tackle) and a receiver. This was on full display during the AFC championship, where Gronkowski would effectively take his man out and then release into his route, even if that man was Terrell Suggs. That is essentially two jobs done by one player, and that shifts the balance on the field significantly. On top of that, these type of tight ends make it near impossible to read run or pass based on alignment, which is often too easy on the current incarnation of the Seahawks offense.

The Patriots don't have to worry that much about replacing Gronk as a receiver, they have options aplenty, but without him or if he's still significantly slowed down, they'll have a hard time slowing down the Giants front four pass rush without making significant receiving option sacrifices. That's huge.

Star-divide

Now, what does all of this have to do with the Seahawks? Bates loved two-tight end sets, but behind Carlson there wasn't all that much on our roster tight end wise, certainly not a group to match Gronkowski-Hernandez. We suffered from that during the Bears game, and regular theories are that this was a big factor in letting Bates go. I don't know if that's true, but it certainly makes some sense. Bevell, by comparison, is not a big two-tight end guy, certainly not as a function of the passing rather than running offense.

I still want to bring this up as an option of what the Seahawks "could or should" do this off-season. Our wide receiver group has come under some scrutiny after Sidney Rice confirmed that he is indeed an injury-prone player, and Mike Williams dropped off the face of the earth because Tarvaris doesn't work well with him. Many are suggesting we could/should spend our first round pick on a wide receiver. And if Blackmon falls to us (and 11-15 sounds like the right range to me), I wouldn't protest.

But at the same time it seems far from ideal to me: we've invested quite a lot in our receiver group and the group is quite young. Obviously, they're not all going to work out, but say Sidney Rice (25) and Doug Baldwin (23) are a young core, all you'd need is for one of Golden Tate (23), Kris Durham (23) or even Ricardo Lockette (25, yes, Lockette is older than you'd expect) to really work out, or alternately for more than one to be pretty good (because the need for a WR2 is inversely proportionate to overall WR depth), and those are decent odds. We're pretty close to being done with rebuilding, but to rise out of it, I'd say we do need significant upgrades in our defensive front seven and at quarterback, before we look back to wide receiver. The draft might not allow for that, in which case you could do worse than elite WR talent at spot 11 or 12, but it's not a position I'd target specifically.

I think a simpler option is available, which is: re-sign John Carlson. Carlson hasn't been discussed much as an impending free agent compared to Marshawn Lynch and Red Bryant, but this decision could be as important as any the Seahawks make this off-season. Our receiving group was not ideal following injuries, yet we often rolled out three-wide groups while Zach Miller stayed in purely to block as one of our primary passing options. When you consider where our offensive line was at, in development status and later with injuries, that makes sense, as well as the fact that Anthony McCoy and Cameron Morrah did not play as well as we could have hoped.

Coming into this next season, the offensive line should be much stronger, which should allow us to do more not just with Zach Miller, but with our tight ends in general. Re-signing John Carlson would give us a duo akin to (if inferior to) the Patriots group, with Miller filling the Gronkowski role and Carlson the Hernandez one. Like Gronk, Miller is much more of an inline blocker, while Carlson has technical weaknesses in this field much like Hernandez does, with both very capable seal blockers but less capable inline blockers. On of the specific things Pete Carroll noted as a need was a "touchdown maker", and I couldn't imagine a better touchdown machine than the combination of these towering 6'5 tight ends.

In the NFL today, you can't just look at your wide receivers when discussing your "receiving group". Upgrading the tight end group by putting Carlson back in and adding a good pass-catcher for your third-down running back option could be a significant upgrade to this passing game without even starting to worry about the WR2 position. Entering 2012, tight end is the cheapest non-ST position to apply a franchise tag to, at a piddling $5.9 million. Assuming we don't need it for anyone else (and I don't see why we would), that's a good option if nothing else is.

I'm not saying I think this is what Pete Carroll will do, and don't know how well it fits what Bevell wants to do. But consider the cost involved of this option compared to spending your first round pick on a wide receiver, consider what Carroll wants most is a touchdown maker, and consider that the option of trading Carlson never seemed to come up as our front office liked the idea of pairing up Carlson and Miller... I could certainly think of worse options than going back to a familiar face.

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I still believe

the only positions we should get in the first round are QB, Dline, and linebacker. Getting anything else especially a WR is a luxury. Now getting a nice luxury player is nice, but I think you get those type of players more in free agency than a draft. (correct use of than?)

Do or do not, there is no try-Yoda

by ironheart777 on Feb 2, 2012 11:15 AM PST reply actions  

agreed

I would much rather sign an FA WR than use a first round draft pick on one.

The post mentioned “adding a good pass-catcher for your third-down running back .” Doesn’t Leon Washington fit into that mold?

Enter the 37th chamber: BEASTMODE

by RunMarshawnRun on Feb 2, 2012 12:37 PM PST up reply actions  

He should, but he wasn't used as such

You’d think he’d be of the Sproles mold but we never used him like it. Chalk it up as another reason I don’t like Bevell. Though maybe that’s more Cable’s game, I dunno.

Point was more weed need to replace Forsett as the 3rd-down option. Don’t need to spend a high pick on that. Might shove up Washington, sure.

Formerly known as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii

by Thomas Beekers on Feb 2, 2012 12:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Chester Taylor saw a lot of targets while he was in Minnesota

I wonder what’s changed.

Trivia fact of the day: Bevell first met Chilly when he was a redshirt freshman at NAU (where Chilly was OC) in the late 80s.

by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Feb 2, 2012 1:27 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't understand the

notion that our dline and linebacker spots are weaknesses. I understand that there are improvements to be made but in comparison to our offense it seems that we need more help on that side of the ball. Other than Lynch we really don’t have any playmakers that can be counted on to come up with a big play. Baldwin is and nice find but I don’t think he is gonna scare any teams by himself. Rice can be that guy but history shows us he won’t. Production from the TE’s was non existent. The only pick that might be considered luxury in the 1st round is OL.

by jusorenson on Feb 2, 2012 2:09 PM PST up reply actions  

I would say not having a pass rush is a weakness

which can be addressed in the draft. As for offense, i would really like to sign Carlson and an upper tier FA for the #2 wide receiver spot.

With our Oline coming back from injury, Carlson and Miller will block less (which is why they were nonexistent) giving Tjax more options.

Enter the 37th chamber: BEASTMODE

by RunMarshawnRun on Feb 2, 2012 3:17 PM PST up reply actions  

I agree

but how much of the lack of pass rush is attributed to the decision to put Red at DE. We can’t have it both ways and keep him there while improving the pass rush outside of finding an elite rush linebacker which is very difficult. I just think that the pass rush will improve once they decide to use a more traditional 4-3 look or fully embrace the 3-4.

by jusorenson on Feb 2, 2012 3:29 PM PST up reply actions  

You'd still need the talent in place to run either one

We don’t.

Formerly known as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii

by Thomas Beekers on Feb 3, 2012 2:39 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't even know how to start replying to this

It’s like you’re talking about a completely different team.

Formerly known as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii

by Thomas Beekers on Feb 3, 2012 2:38 AM PST up reply actions  

No kidding. It takes some amount of common context/understanding to have a meaningful discussion.

In this case, it seems largely missing (common context) to be able to contribute anything without starting by contributing everything.

ONLY IN SEATTLE:
By swaggering could I never thrive,
For the rain, it raineth every day.

by Hawksince77 on Feb 3, 2012 1:43 PM PST up reply actions  

I'd love to see Carlson come back

He may have to settle for a one-year, prove-it deal on the open market.

by Keski on Feb 2, 2012 11:25 AM PST reply actions  

why get personal for a past OC's scheme?

I like Carlson but when you really look at it he’s had ONE good season

by G-Mo on Feb 2, 2012 11:39 AM PST via mobile reply actions  

If Bevell can't maximize two-TE passing options he's not worth keeping

I think he’s barely worth keeping as it is. Really lukewarm on it.

Not sure how you got to one good season. His first two seasons were functionally identical.

Formerly known as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii

by Thomas Beekers on Feb 2, 2012 11:47 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

My Hope Is

That Carlson is fully recovered. If so, then he’s a smart physical player that knows how to get open. He’s a much better option, even though he doesn’t match the physical talents of the other two TE’s.

McCoy is a monster blocker with bad hands.

Morrah is more the athletic receptions type.

Carlson seems right in between those two, so his versatility should win out in competition.

Live work and breathe like an optimist.

by JRock419 on Feb 2, 2012 12:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Morrah's got pretty poor hands, himself

He plays faster than McCoy and makes more athletic attempts, but doesn’t come down with the passes as often as I’d like. According to this random FFB site I found, he caught fewer than 50% of his targets over the last 2 years:

http://www.fftoday.com/stats/players/11248/Cameron_Morrah?LeagueID=24248

by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Feb 2, 2012 1:30 PM PST up reply actions  

McCoy seems to get open

If he would start catching the ball he could be valuable.

by Billy Showbiz on Feb 2, 2012 1:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Carson and Miller sounds fine to me. A two headed touchdown machine.

And as you pointed out, using two tight ends would make our offensive sets less readable as to pass or run tendencies.

by broadbill birdwatcher on Feb 2, 2012 12:29 PM PST reply actions  

Carlson could be the man.

I support this post. Much rather see Carlson come back than use a high draft pick on our touchdown maker. Seems like a familiar face is an excellent choice of direction.

by hawkshock on Feb 2, 2012 12:45 PM PST reply actions  

I like the idea of bring back Carlson.

Hopefully a deal can be worked out to bring him back a reasonable price for a number two tight end. His injury will most likely keep many teams from persuing him in free agency. This may allow the ’Hawks to get a good deal on a big, strong tight end that runs good routes and has soft hands. Of course, this is still only one option in a needed upgrade at this position.

McCoy seemed to make huge improvements in his blocking this year. If he can make similar strides in his pass catching, then we could be looking at a pretty solid position group. Either way, I expected to see a very competitive churn at the bottom end of the roster this offseason.

...and if a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump it's ass when it hopped.

by Side Effects on Feb 2, 2012 12:46 PM PST reply actions  

Bring back Carlson for the right price, he's definitely young enough.

We’ll be able to evaluate how much faith they have in the young guns improving (I could see Morrah taking another step) by what they do.

Also, no offense, but I really can’t read the second paragraph. Who’s ‘they’? Who dominated the championship game using 3-4? If you’re referring to the Giants, are you talking about earlier this season when they played? Doi’t they exclusively play in the 4-3?

by Stay Off the Flowers on Feb 2, 2012 1:29 PM PST reply actions  

Second Patriots should be Giants, fixed

They played primarily 4-3. They don’t ever exclusively play one formation. I don’t think a lot of teams do.

Formerly known as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii

by Thomas Beekers on Feb 2, 2012 1:35 PM PST up reply actions  

This article wasn't very well-cleaned up. Beneath my standards, sorry

Also

Greg Cosell
Pats played almost all 4-3 v. NYG week 9. Almost all 3-4 in recent games. What will we see? Wilfork can play 3 different positions well.

Formerly known as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii

by Thomas Beekers on Feb 3, 2012 4:49 AM PST up reply actions  

Bringing Carlson back could improve the playaction as well

Showing more 2 tightend sets would definitly confuse a D if those 2 tight ends are a good pass catching threat like Miller and Carlson

Enter the 37th chamber: BEASTMODE

by RunMarshawnRun on Feb 2, 2012 1:51 PM PST reply actions  

Is it just me???

The guy in his tightie whities humping the bear on each side of the page kind of bothers me. If my wife walks in while I’m reading on this site, she’s gonna question my affiliation… Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

by rideaducati on Feb 2, 2012 2:11 PM PST reply actions  

Yeah man, I feel you

I had to shrink the window to ditch that painfully annoying add. Borderline NSFW.
And no one would question your affliation if you do in fact ride a ducati

by Crominator56 on Feb 2, 2012 2:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Might not be all that easy though.

Don’t forget about the fat man in Cleveland.

by Richard fg7 on Feb 2, 2012 2:37 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

In watching the Patriots-Bills week three game last night, I was reminded that New England was without Aaron Hernandez in that game.

Tom Brady threw as many interceptions against the Bills (4) as he did in 2010. It becomes apparent that as amazing as the “four targets and only four targets” model is, it certainly suffers when you only have 3 healthy targets. Brady was forcing passes (though 2 of his INTs were deflected, they were still forced into tight areas. Nearly a 5th INT was thrown on a deflection) and he hardly ever went to Branch.

The amount that he relies on Gronkowski is quite stunning compared to the previous eras of the NFL, but yeah… it’s the way of the world now.

follow @casetines

by Kenneth Arthur on Feb 2, 2012 2:48 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

Great point Beekers.

I had sort of forgotten about Carlson. I’d love to see him return.

by jhmg16 on Feb 2, 2012 2:58 PM PST reply actions  

If memory serves, PC mentioned wanting Carlson back, during his post-season presser.

For whatever that’s worth.

ONLY IN SEATTLE:
By swaggering could I never thrive,
For the rain, it raineth every day.

by Hawksince77 on Feb 2, 2012 3:08 PM PST reply actions  

Yep- he's mentioned it several times and Carlson confirmed there are talks about him returning to the team.

It all comes down to how much they offer though, I would think. Maybe Carlson will want to stay here, enticed by the Gronk/Hernadez style partnership with Miller. I hope so. I’m glad Beekers wrote this article.

by Danny Kelly on Feb 2, 2012 3:22 PM PST up reply actions  

That would be just awesome in my book.

I definitely have a man-crush on John Carlson. Keeping him in Seahawks Blue would be nice.

The beatings will continue until morale improves!

by HopScotch on Feb 2, 2012 8:00 PM PST up reply actions  

They should just have BMW put on 20 lbs of beef

and play him at TE
he probably won’t be as good at blocking as Stonehands McCoy, but he sure as hell can catch.

by Chooch82 on Feb 2, 2012 8:28 PM PST reply actions  

He's too slow coming in and out of breaks and this coming in and out of chips

He’s kind of a tweener but not one that I would think would make a good TE.

Formerly known as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii

by Thomas Beekers on Feb 3, 2012 2:41 AM PST up reply actions  

Also, he just mentioned that he plans on losing a bunch of weight to get faster
Brady Henderson of 710ESPN Seattle says Seahawks receiver Mike Williams plans to cut weight for the 2012 season. Williams: “I’ve got to get better, I’ve got to get faster, I’ve got to get more explosive. I won’t be playing at 240 this year. I’m going to go down and go a lot lower than that just to give myself the best chance.”

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/58647/around-the-nfc-west-fitz-manning-summit

by Greetings from the Lord Humongous! on Feb 3, 2012 9:34 AM PST up reply actions  

Not sure if that'll work

But good luck to him.

Formerly known as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii

by Thomas Beekers on Feb 3, 2012 9:40 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm not either.

But I’m encouraged to see he’s trying something different.

by jhmg16 on Feb 3, 2012 5:59 PM PST up reply actions  

How will that work exactly?

While I like the configuration, I have to admit that we are kind of fighting the available talent on this team.

Doug Baldwin is our slot receiver. Something you’re going to lose with the 2 TE set.

Michael Robinson is our FB who had a great deal of value to us. We lose the FB as well in the 2 TE set.

I’m not sure Carlson could be expected to produce even remotely as much as either of those two are capable of. In the case for a 2 TE set, you are requiring we drop one or both of these players.

I’m a big Carlson fan too. But I don’t see him being valuable enough to warrant the precious few plays he’s going to participate in. He’s not going to replace Miller. So you’re likely talking about a guy that has at most 4-8 plays per game. That seems more like a role filled by Morrah/McCoy.

If this offense was a 1 back offense, then Carlson would have more value. And it could be that we went with FB/TB specifically because we lost Carlson to begin with.

I do think that it’s a question of keeping either Robinson or Carlson.

by Attylathehawk on Feb 3, 2012 8:49 AM PST reply actions  

You're talking as if an offense can stay in only one formation all game

Michael Robinson already comes out on obvious passing downs, he plays at most half our offense snaps, usually somewhere closer to 1/3rd. 22 of 65 snaps W15, 26 of 68 snaps W14.

But he’s also in on many two TE sets, the 22 formation, at the end of the year with Golden Tate usually as the single WR. When we line up like that, right now, it’s too easy for the defense to read run, since McCoy/Morrah aren’t very credible receiving threats. Line up like that with Miller and Carlson, and it becomes harder.

You can still line up a slot receiver with two TEs. I don’t see why that’d be a contradiction. Even so, Baldwin too comes out on a lot of snaps.

4-8 snaps? Against the Bears (random example), Morrah got 17 snaps, McCoy 15. W14, Morrah got 26, McCoy got 8. Please don’t just make up numbers like that when they’re completely unsubstantiated. Right now I think the Seahawks run close to half their snaps from double-TE formations, either with 0, 1 or 2 running backs.

Formerly known as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii

by Thomas Beekers on Feb 3, 2012 9:48 AM PST up reply actions  

First off Beekers is right, we use a lot of 2 TE sets

And we would use more if we had more talent at TE, Carlson is definately an upgrade over both Morrah and McCoy.
Second, Just because Baldwin is an excellent slot reciever does not mean that is all he can play. Booby Engram used to be our #2 WR, but when we had 3 WR sets he bumped down to the slot. This is something Baldwin is smart and talented enough to do.
running 22 as a set becomes way more balanced when we have top talent at both tight ends. If we were to resign Carlson, it would get used a lot because both TEs would be passing threats as well as Robinson(both an excellent pass catcher but also a wildcat type RB as well.) The weakest point would be the Tailback. I think both Marshawn and Washington (as well as many FA tailback options) have proven they can be atleast consistent threats from the back field in the passing game.

by Oliudyen on Feb 3, 2012 10:29 AM PST up reply actions  

Baldwin has that potential, yes

Cruz and Welker are used in similar ways. But let’s not skin the bear before it’s shot, I’d like to see Baldwin put em up before I can assume he can do it. But the potential is there.

Good points, O.

Formerly known as Vasilii, follow me on twitter @dolgorukii

by Thomas Beekers on Feb 3, 2012 10:55 AM PST up reply actions  

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