Seattle Seahawks: Will Shaun Alexander Make the Hall of Fame?
Upon reading over this article by Steve Rudman on whether or not Shaun Alexander will receive or deserves election to the Hall of Fame, I wondered whether or not I even thought he deserved election to the Hall of Fame.
Blasphemous? Maybe. But Alexanders perception around the league as "soft" and that he benefited from playing behind the greatest left side of an offensive line ever might have worn me down over the years. It's not that I don't think that Alexander should or will, but it's more about the fact that I have to question it at all. I defend my Seahawks like none other, but as each day passes from the 2005 season it gets harder and harder to remember what it was like to tune in every Sunday just to watch the man run.
Quick Shaun Alexander Facts:
- His 9,453 yards are 29th all-time, ahead of Earl Campbell and Jim Taylor and Herschel Walker. However, if we're going to talk about "counting stats" then it's less than Thomas Jones, Tiki Barber, Warrick Dunn.
- His 100 rushing touchdowns are tied with Marshall Faulk for 7th all-time. The only players in the top 10 that aren't in the Hall of Fame will be in the HoF eventually: Jerome Bettis and LaDainian Tomlinson.
- His 27 TD 2005 was an NFL record for one year until Tomlinson scored 28.
- His 1,880 yard 2005 season is the 10th highest of all-time.
- His 4.3 career YPC number is tied with HoF players like Tony Dorsett, Marshall Faulk, and Larry Csonka. It's also tied with Ryan Grant, Earnest Graham, Reggie Bush.
I got nothing bad to say about Shaun Alexander, but these are the things that voters are going to look at. If they are staring at a ballot with Alexander and Corey Dillon, what are they going to see about Alexander to put him over the top of Dillon? Does Dillon feel like a Hall of Famer?
During the five years that he was the primary RB in Seattle (much shorter than I remembered) Alexander averaged 1,501 yards, 17 TD, 4.5 YPC and 93.8 Y/G with 37 catches for 269 yards and 2 more TDs. Pretty remarkable peak.
I now ask you the question below and please pay attention to how the question is worded before you answer.
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I'll repeat what in the Cortez thread
5 years of top ten RB numbers just isn’t enough, even with the fantastically amazing 2005 season. He was a star and a great player, but he just didn’t last very long.
by MT Olson on Feb 6, 2012 2:40 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
He didn't have enough high-level production for a sustained period of time
They aren’t going to put Shaun in the hall just on 2001-2005 because he was so bad in 2006 and 2007.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
by SSreporters on Feb 6, 2012 2:54 PM PST reply actions 3 recs
What was so bad about 2006?
He broke his foot and missed six games then came back and had some good games (MNF against the Packers was great). He was certainly declining, but even in a short season with a crippling injury he still ran for 896 yards. He also had a great game in Chicago in the playoffs.
He played awful football for the opening 3 weeks
Turned it on late, but that’s still not a good year.
And he was so bad in 2007 after about week 3 that he absolutely should’ve been benched.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
If we are going to judge his 2006 off of the first 3 games...
Then I guess Marshawn’s 2011 was not a good year because he was not good at all weeks 1-3. Also, while agree 2007 was a bad year he was awesome the first three weeks rushing for 275 yards and 2 TD’s in the first three games. He didn’t have his first bad game until week 5.
That's not a good comparison
Lynch scored a TD in 11 straight games, 100 yd performance in 9 straight games, and was one of the best RBs in football in the last 2 months.
Shaun having a singular 201 yard performance (his only 100 yard rushing performance that year IIRC) doesn’t make it a great year for him.
Are you saying Shaun Alexander should be in the HOF? Because I don’t think producing great seasons from 2001-2005 is “One of the best to ever play the game” in the slightest.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
by SSreporters on Feb 6, 2012 4:24 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Also, Shaun's huge liabilities in the passing game (especially in the era of the pass-catching RB)
Don’t make him HOF caliber either.
Best Seahawks RB ever? Sure. One of the best in 2000s? Yes. HOF? No argument can be made.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
by SSreporters on Feb 6, 2012 4:26 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I think you just made the argument actually.
Best Seahawks RB ever? Sure. One of the best in 2000s? Yes.
If Shaun doesn’t deserve to be in the Hall of Fame then what other running backs from the last ten years do? Just LT? Shaun put up HOF caliber numbers for his career, had a phenomenal peak and had one of the greatest running back seasons of all time. What else do you want from the guy?
HOF? No argument can be made.I guess if we throw out numbers, ignore five fantastic seasons and evaluate purely on the emotion of the disappointment of his last two seasons in Seattle.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
by kelly20210 on Feb 6, 2012 4:57 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
I would put Steven Jackson ahead of him.
"The time has come," the Walrus said, "to talk of many things."
Yep.
Jackson has been quality even with injuries and has been on the worst team in the NFL hands down over a six year span.
Shaun took one serious injury and he collapsed.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
Steven Jackson should have his middle name changed to "eight man fronts"
"The time has come," the Walrus said, "to talk of many things."
"Eight man fronts except vs. Seattle" is too long for one name, dude. :)
"The time has come," the Walrus said, "to talk of many things."
by shams on Feb 6, 2012 6:15 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
This sounds like a court case
"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff
by EequalsMc2 on Feb 6, 2012 8:01 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
He took one serious injury to his foot. Can't think of when a running back might need healthy feet.
I also don’t see the merit of saying Steven Jackson is better than Shaun, which is arguable, but I don’t agree at all. Steven Jackson is also a back that will have a strong Hall of Fame case someday too. It’s not a strong argument to say I think this great player is slightly better than this great player. Steven Jackson’s accomplishments in no way diminish Shaun’s unless you are saying Steven Jackson definitely doesn’t belong in the Hall either. And therefore Shaun should not be in either. Which I don’t think is what you are saying.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
Also, Shaun’s huge liabilities in the passing game (especially in the era of the pass-catching RB)
Shaun caught 215 balls in his career.
Between 2001 and 2004 he caught 168 passes.
WTF are you talking about?
Learn JiuJitsu.
Semper Fi'
by RolloTomasi on Feb 7, 2012 7:20 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe he was talking about Shaun's blocking.
70% of space is covered by dark matter, the rest by ET.
And Lynch did all of that running behind backups, rookies, and newcomers playing through injuries.
Fuck. Lynch absolutely killed it this season.
Seriously, behind that same line
Mo Morris recorded multiple 100 yard games against Oakland and St. Louis.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
Wow against the Raiders who had the 8th worst rush defense and the Rams who had the 2nd worst.
In fact Mo’s third best game where he ran for 74 yards was also against the Rams. Almost a third of Mo’s yards came against a pathetic Rams rush D. Those numbers had as much to do with the line as with the pathetic defenses that he was playing against.
I'm not saying that Lynch had a bad year.
I was pointing out that even with a bad first three games a running back could still have a quality year.
And you're trying to argue that Shaun would've had a quality 2006 had he been healthy
But he was not healthy, he did not have a quality year, and was awful through most of 2007 and not healthy thus he needed to be cut.
You can’t just declare “HOF!” through 2001-2005.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
I'm saying he had a good year in 2006 despite the injuries.
When he played that year he was a top 10 running back in the league. His stats are disappointing when compared to his other amazing seasons, but compared to the rest of the NFL in 2006 he had a good year.
He averaged 3.6 YPC, which explains why he hit over 89 5 times
So in those games he averaged 4 YPC, which is equal to his 2002 season.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
Basically it took him many many carries to reach the yardage totals
Montario Hardesty rushed for 95 yards against us but he needed 30+ carries. That’s a mediocre game for a RB.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
Yeah in that game Hardesty had an average of 2.8.
I understand the point you are trying to make, but Hardesty is a bad example.
I am with you SSReporters.
As much as I love Shaun, 2006 was the first year where he went way downhill. In that Green Bay game, I’d like to see what his stats were on every run. I seem to remember him getting a lot of short runs, but then again that was six years ago. I guess I am trying to say he just looked off and not the typical Shaun we had grown accustomed to.
by Neonjerseysplease on Feb 6, 2012 8:27 PM PST up reply actions
He averaged 4.5 yards a carry on 40 carries.
His longest run in the game was 21 yards.
Correction.
He averaged 5 yards a carry on 40 carries.
A big part of the reason he was cut, was partially due to the fact that we owed him a ton of money if we kept him.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
He rushed for 89+ in 5 of his 10 games.
He rushed for over 100 three times if you include the Chicago playoff game. In terms of his yards per game he exactly matched his 2003 season. 2006 was a good year by almost every measure. Unfortunately, it gets sucked into a disappointing 2007 season which taints it.
This is every Shaun TD from 2005. It's nice to remember how great he was.
by Alex Kelly on Feb 6, 2012 3:06 PM PST reply actions 4 recs
Watching that feels so good.
Thanks for the link. His gamespeed was so much better than many of us seem to remember. Damn, I want a line that effective again, too. Good times.
Easley isn't in the HoF
Primarily cauase of a short career(in my opinion at least) and I think, sadly it has to be said, Shaun will fall into that category to.I think Easley feels like more of a HoF guy than Shaun it has to be said but I think, and mabey i’m biased, both deserve to be in some day. Only sure Hall of Famer for us right now has got to be Walt – If he doesn’t get in 1st ballot then no one can deny the Seahawks get screwed all the time!
by Slayer95 on Feb 6, 2012 3:30 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Kenny Easley side note:
My favorite line about Easley:
“He’d be a Hall of Fame player (had he played longer). Maybe he still is. He was that good.”
-Bill Walsh
by Anicra on Feb 6, 2012 3:46 PM PST up reply actions 6 recs
Good point. I guess what is missing (for me) is clear criteria. Is Bo Jackson in the HOF (I guess I could look).
Was there ever a RB who could match Bo Jackson for speed, power, pure domination? But he had a short career as well (I am sure there are dozens of comparable situations, where a player is great for a few seasons but doesn’t play long enough).
Okay, I looked it up. A few tidbits on Bo Jackson:
At hand measured 4.12, “still the fastest verifiable 40-yard dash time ever recorded at any NFL Combine.”
“Jackson’s 221 yards on November 30, 1987, just 29 days after his first NFL carry, is still a Monday Night Football record.” Wasn’t that against Seattle? Maybe why that’s why I remember him so well.
Yep, here it is:
“Jackson turned in a 221 yard rushing performance on Monday Night Football in 1987 against the Seattle Seahawks. During this game, he ran over Seahawks linebacker Brian Bosworth, who had insulted Jackson and promised in a media event before the game to contain Jackson. He also made a 91 yard run in the 2nd quarter, to the outside, untouched down the sideline. He continued sprinting until finally slowing down as he passed through the entrance to the field tunnel to the dressing rooms with teammates soon following. Jackson scored two rushing touchdowns and one receiving touchdown in the game.”
ONLY IN SEATTLE:
By swaggering could I never thrive,
For the rain, it raineth every day.
by Hawksince77 on Feb 6, 2012 4:04 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Bo Jackson may be the best RB ever. In his short 4-year career, he played behind Marcus Allen, who himself...
…was inducted in the HOF in 2003.
ONLY IN SEATTLE:
By swaggering could I never thrive,
For the rain, it raineth every day.
Bo Jackson is not in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
He is in the College Football Hall of Fame.
He should go in the hall
purely due to the terribleness of his celebrations
I Bleed Blue and Green
by DSAhawker on Feb 6, 2012 3:57 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
Shaun has 1 thing going for him
He got lots of East coast press coverage in 2005. With the Hawks getting to the Superbowl and his MVP season. Usually name recognition is not something a Seahawk has going for him but Shaun does.
will there ever be a running back again...
that can have hall-of-fame-caliber production for more than five years?
I think so.
In the current climate probably not, but the league is so cyclical that in ten years the running game feature back thing may come roaring back.
Yeah, and I think for now we're just looking more at all-purpose yardage guys like MJD, Ray Rice, and LeSean McCoy rather than pure runners.
But take Adrian Peterson for instance, and you’ve got a guy that has 5 years in the league, with injury being his first hiccup this past season but he was well on his way. Now consider that he’s 26 and when Alexander started to decline he was 29.
30 seems to be the breaking point for most backs, and if he stays healthy, then AP is well on his way with four more seasons.
follow @casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on Feb 6, 2012 4:17 PM PST up reply actions
AP's injury could throw a wrench in this
ACL injuries can sap explosiveness for several years, so I wouldn’t be surprised to see the next few years be significantly below the level of his last few.
i guess i'm thinking more in terms of durability
than offensive trends.
we’re already beginning to see the run game making a comeback, but even the best can’t seem to stick around year after year.
curious to see if guys like AP and chris johnson can keep it up.
and of course, beastmode.
'durable' may be the wrong word
but i think we’ve seen their effective career spans diminish as a result of a much faster and more physical game. they may technicall be in the nfl for just as long, but not at a consistent level of the walter payton’s, emmit smith’s, marshall faulk’s, etc.
in the last decade or so we’ve seen more like ahman green, terrel davis, priest holmes variety. big big year or two, then fast fade. sometime due to injury, sometimes just hitting the wall.
jury is out on AP and CJ.
Terrell Davis and Marshall Faulk played in the same era.
Players have been blowing up their knees or what have you, forever. And they will continue to do so. Steven Jackson has remained healthy and at a high level.
follow @casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on Feb 6, 2012 4:57 PM PST up reply actions
yup, true.
davis and faulk fall right about at the line where it seems like things began to change.
i don’t know for sure if there’s a rule, but i’d like to say a guy like jackson is an exception to it. he does take a beating and keeps on.
just looking back at some of ‘the greats,’ they appear to have longer careers of contribution and the ability to accumulate stats that i’m not sure we’ll see again.
so. steven jackson—hall of fame, shaun alexander no? both?
their stats are very similar, except for TDs.
Another interesting case in Jackson.
Say he keeps up his performance for another couple three years or so. An absolutely great talent on a shitty team. How do you weight that?
ONLY IN SEATTLE:
By swaggering could I never thrive,
For the rain, it raineth every day.
He may get the Tez treatment
Ignored for years before people realized how much he carried a shitty team.
i think he was 2 seasons away from HoF worthy
5 seasons of production just isn’t enough – if his 06 and 07 seasons had matched any of his 01-04 seasons he’d be a lock I’d say.
but his career was only 2 seasons longer than Easley – one as a backup RB and the other just 4 games and 11 carries long, and with Easley having 6.5 years of production to Alexander’s 5 (plus two half seasons in 06 and 07), the fact of the matter is if Easley can’t get into the HoF for having too short a career, no way will/should Alexander.
Though the fact that Easley isn’t in the HoF is kinda irrelevant as he SHOULD be
I think he's easily in the Hall of Fame. He's easily the second best running back
of the last ten years and arguably better than Tomlinson. It doesn’t really matter if you didn’t have longevity in the NFL, when you’re numbers are comparable or better than a lot of other guys that are in the Hall of Fame.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
I don't know where "easily" comes from
I’m not even sure he’s in the top 5.
Players in the last 10 years who’ve danced with Shaun on the leaderboards:
-AP, Tiki Barber, Fred Taylor, Frank Gore, Clinton Portis, Steven Jackson and LT beat or equaled him in career yds/attempt. He had two seasons where he was in the top five that year(5th, 5th). He’s 121st in the NFL.
-LT, Thomas Jones, Edgerrin James, Fred Taylor, Ricky Williams, Jamal Lewis, Tiki Barber, and Clinton Portis all have more career rushing yards. He had two seasons where he was in the top 5 that year (2nd, 1st). He’s 29th all-time.
-AP, Steven Jackson, Frank Gore, LT, Clinton Portis, Edgerrin James, and Jamal Lewis all have more rushing yds/game. He had two seasons where he was in the top 5 that year (4th, 1st). He’s 22nd all-time.
-The main reason he’s in the discussion is his TD’s, where he shares the top 15 of all-time with a bunch of HoF’s and Jerome Bettis, who will be. 5 seasons of top 3 in rushing TD’s.
-He’s 100th all-time in all purpose yards.
-He’s 65th all-time in yards from scrimmage.
I wasn’t even really looking at comparing guys ending their careers in the 2000’s, for the record. Guys like Edgerrin James, LT, Fred Taylor, Clinton Portis, Tiki Barber and Jamal Lewis were just as good or better in the last ten years, and they lasted considerably longer than Shaun. Not all had one truly great season, but they all shared time as top of the league backs like Shaun.
Of course, mayhaps his apex outweighs Thomas Jones or Steven Jacksons endurance and consistency? I’m gonna use AV from Pro-Football-Reference, since it’s fast and easily gives a value on individual seasons. I’m not going to argue it’s a perfect method of comparison. Shaun’s best 5 seasons, from 2001-2005? 12, 11, 14, 13, 16! Edge’s? 21, 21, 15, 21, 19. Tiki Barber? 14, 14, 17, 21, 18. Clinton Portis, LT, Thomas Jones, Fred Taylor, they’re all better. And all have higher AV’s. All played for longer.
Don’t like AV? He’s 9th,16th, 6th, 5th, and 2nd in DVOA among running backs for each season 2001-2005. Yes, he deserved his pro-bowls. But Hall of Famer? I don’t see it.
by MT Olson on Feb 6, 2012 5:37 PM PST up reply actions 5 recs
There are 89 skill position players in the Hall of Fame.
At 65th in yards from scrimmage all time, a list that includes guys that aren’t in yet, he’s comfortably in the conversation in terms of yards. He’s also, as you said, 15th on the all time td list. His peak was crazy, I don’t really buy into advanced football stats a lot because it’s not like baseball or basketball where you can completely isolate an individual and the play’s result. That’s off topic though. Lastly, Edge, LT, Tiki and Fred Taylor all probably deserve the nod as well.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
by kelly20210 on Feb 6, 2012 6:04 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Since we are talking about the HOF, I think it is important to look at what the Hall voters think of Shaun.
In 2010 he was voted to the All-Decade team by the same Hall voters who will decide his fate. They voted him 2nd team all-decade behind LT and Edgerrin James. Also on the 2nd team is Jamal Lewis.
He was one of the most dominate RBs I've ever seen for those 5 years.
I think it really depends on what you think the Hall of Fame is supposed to recognize. If it is about recognizing the players who played at the highest level then I think Shaun is in easily, but if longevity is also a part of it (which I think it is) then I just don’t think he produced long enough to get in.
Dominant. DOMINANT!
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
by SSreporters on Feb 6, 2012 6:07 PM PST up reply actions 6 recs
Look at the votes: he can't get elected to the HOF by his own fans!
ONLY IN SEATTLE:
By swaggering could I never thrive,
For the rain, it raineth every day.
We should just link to this thread when we are accused of being homers.
"The time has come," the Walrus said, "to talk of many things."
I feel like Seattle fans are biased against Shaun.
People in Seattle only seem to remember the last two years of his career and how he underperformed after he resigned. I guess part of this could be all of the people that became Seahawk fans after 2005 who don’t remember him before that. However, I think the greater reason is the media narrative that Shaun was a “soft” runner.
by Alex Kelly on Feb 6, 2012 6:35 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Because Shaun was a soft runner in his final two seasons
I have no idea what happened but he looked so hesitant to hit any hole and would go down on first contact if not give himself up for a four yard loss.
It’s not a narrative, it’s pretty much fact that at least in his last two seasons he was softer than a pillow.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
You can't just slap that narrative on his entire career though.
Also he was still an effective back in ‘06 when healthy. Just because you don’t like the way he ran doesn’t change the results or what he did before.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
Of course not
But I think that statistically Shaun did not have sustained success long enough to make the HOF.
This wouldn’t be a debate if not for him being a Seahawk. Put that guy on the 49ers and we’d be saying “hell no” unanimously.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
What is sustained success in the NFL. Earl Campbell had a brief career and is in the Hall.
Shaun rushed for more yards and touchdowns, than Earl Campbell.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
Earl Campbell was a lot, and I mean A LOT tougher than Shaun ever was.
"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff
What does toughness have to do with anything at all?
So I suppose Dan Marino isn’t as good Roethlisberger because Ben is tougher?
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
But Campbell's toughness revolutionized the game.
Campbell was described as “the best power back ever” and drew raving reviews from opponents and teammates. You can say the same for Shaun.
"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff
So you're saying Earl Cambpell is a HOF novelty and doesn't
really stack up in terms of on the field accomplishments? Or that you have to in someway have changed the game in order to be in the Hall?
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
You can't really compare Campbell's stats considering the punishment and pain he took for the first few years.
Going by the “life in years, not years in life” adage, than we can say Campbell, while having a inferior statistical record than Shaun, did more in his tenure with the league.
"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff
Oh yeah, he also produced a 1300 yard season
On a 2-14 team. Led by Oliver Luck. And Campbell missed two games.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
Fun fact Earl Campbell and Shaun ran the ball 2187 times each.
They both sustained career debilitating injuries. Basically at this point your argument is I preferred Campbell’s style more. That’s fine, but it doesn’t mean much.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
by kelly20210 on Feb 6, 2012 8:59 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Earl Campbell also led the NFL in rushing 3 times
Had an excellent rookie season (won ROTY), won the NFL Offensive Player of the Year award 3 times in a row (including his rookie year), and was known as the baddest mofo of his time.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
None of that takes away the fact that their careers are remarkably similar
and Shaun’s is actually a little better.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
Matt Hasselbeck has a better QB rating than Dan Fouts
And fewer INTs, does that make Hasselbeck a Hall of Famer?
And Earl Campbell was producing elite RB numbers despite having awful QBs throughout his career. Dan Pastorini put up terrible stats as did Ken Stabler and early Warren Moon.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
Also.
Shaun ran behind 1, possibly 2 Hall-of-Famers (if you count Hutch) for most of his career.
Campbell did not have such luxury.
"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff
He spent a lot of his career on really shitty teams
Bad QBs and bad defenses.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
Walter Jones and Steve Hutchinson also had the luxury of blocking
for some pretty good backs in their career. This is sort of Chicken or the egg stuff.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
Not if you like at how good Mo Morris did in spot duty.
As for the Seahawks, they shall have stars at elbow and foot...Though they sink through the sea they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion.
That's been addressed above. Morris was bad outside
of the games in which we played two of the league’s worst rush defenses: Stl. and Oakland.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
No it doesn't because Matt Hasselbeck's career doesn't compare
to other Hall of Fame quarterback’s in many ways. Shaun’s clearly does. In ’01 and ’02 Shaun played with Trent Dilfer and crappy Matt and put up premium numbers anyway. Earl Campbell also played against smaller and slower defenses than Shaun.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
It was a running league back then.
Teams were built to stop the run.
Some guys make the hall with injury shortened careers because they were electric one of a kind players. Like Gayle Sayers, or Earl Campbell. Shaun is not one of those players.
Earl was a nasty, violent, savage runner who got little blocking and perhaps needed none.
70% of space is covered by dark matter, the rest by ET.
So again you just happen to prefer the way Earl Campbell ran it.
That’s ok but it literally makes no difference. Teams also played 215 lb linebackers than ran 4.9 40s.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
There is a degree
of subjectivity to it. Numbers only go so far.
Legendary players with “good enough” numbers get in. A good player running behind a legendary LT and LG with “good enough” numbers doesn’t.
And it’s not a matter of preference of Earl’s running style. It would be better described as utter disbelief that such running was possible. Shaun was a good runner, but people didn’t sit on the edge of their seats to waiting to see Shaun’s next 5 yard sweep behind Walt.
You are trying to compare Shaun to a football legend, a pigskin god, and it’s not working.
70% of space is covered by dark matter, the rest by ET.
by hazbro24 on Feb 7, 2012 12:42 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
How far are you going to take the subjectivity?
All you are doing right now is looking at all the positives of Earl Campbell and the negatives of Shaun. That isn’t an argument, you happen to like Campbell more and I happen to like Shaun more. That doesn’t prove a thing. You’re welcome to your opinion but you’re writing off Shaun because you don’t like him and that’s not really a valid point at all.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
by kelly20210 on Feb 7, 2012 4:47 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
First, I don't dislike Shaun.
I’m not even looking at the negatives, I’m just being realistic. He’s not making it.
That’s my prediction. You can try tweeting Peter King, or Clayton. Find out what they think about Shaun vs. Earl. I’d wager they’d die of laughter at the thought.
70% of space is covered by dark matter, the rest by ET.
I'm not sure you're clear on how the HOF rules work
Shaun will be eligible for 15 years and the voters MUST place 5 players in the hall each year, minimum. That’s a lot of opportunities and when you look at his numbers they are hall worthy, plain and simple.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
There is no must on the minimum each year.
They can put in 2 if they feel like it.
But more to the point: now you’re not just comparing him against past players but current also. There’s a lot of first ballot guys in the league right now. And first ballot guys like Walt who are in between. Plus guys like Carter who have all time numbers who are biding their time.
And for the record, I’d never cite Peter King for a GOD DAMNED thing because he’s an idiot, except he’s relevant because he’s one of the clowns who has a HOF vote.
Just glancing at the all time rusher list, guys ahead of him not in the hall:
Ricky Waters
Edgerrin James
Corey Dillon
Fred Taylor
Warrick Dunn
Eddie George
Jerome Bettis
Clinton Portis
Ricky Williams
Ottis Anderson
If you look at the list you’ll notice that after OJ Simpson at 18 that’s about the cut off. There are a few old timers with less yardage who are in. But modern age players, 12K seems to be the magic number.
It just ain’t happening.
70% of space is covered by dark matter, the rest by ET.
Current committe rules do stipulate that between four and seven players enter each year.
Link. It’s in the third paragraph of section one.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
.
[ignoring stats for a moment]
Remember that perception is pretty darn important in this voting. Nobody is writing off Shaun because they don’t like him (no Seattle fans anyway), people are writing off Shaun because it’s difficult to see the sports collective voting for him. I don’t know what his legacy will look like in 10 years, but is there a strong enough narrative behind Shaun for him to become a legend, like Campbell or Faulk?
I could write up a paragraph on Shaun because he was a Seahawk, right here, right now. I could right up just as much on Faulk because he was so damn fluid I never had any clue where he was going. I had no real investment in watching Faulk, but he was just so talented I had to keep flipping the channel. Campbell, as stated previously, was like a cross between the Hulk and a moose. And a bear.
Does Shaun have a narrative that encapsulates his career? Did he stick to the minds of all those non-Seattle voters? What is his legacy in the NFL?
He’s either got to have legendary reputation like Campbell, or very strong stats. We can hope he might have just enough of both get in, like Curtis Martin, but it’s not likely.
Well he had a strong enough reputation to
get voted second team all decade. He had a strong enough reputation to be the only player that has ever appeared on the cover of EA Sports NCAA Football, and of course Madden.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
You're bringing up video game covers?
Fuck. I’m done talking to you.
70% of space is covered by dark matter, the rest by ET.
by hazbro24 on Feb 7, 2012 7:31 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Well the question was about his national reputation.
That makes something like a video game cover relevant . He was famous enough in his time to be on the cover of the best selling sports game on the market. More importantly Hall voters already voted him as one of the best backs of his era. Other running backs to be named 2nd team All-Decade: Thurman Thomas, John Riggins, Franco Harris, and of course Earl Campbell.
by Alex Kelly on Feb 7, 2012 8:16 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Why is that a conversation ender?
If perception is going to be a driving force for the vote then the video game covers will definitely be part of that discussion. It’s not necessarily that he was on them but its why he was on them. He was the most electrifying runner in his senior year at Alabama and so he made the cover. He had a year unlike any RB before (Obviously LT kinda matched it the next year but that isn’t a knock on SA) so he made the Madden cover. As has been noted, he was selected 2nd all decade team by a lot of the same people who will be voting for the HOF. The only question is, are 5 great years enough? Because however you slice it, those 5 years were unlike anything anyone else had done before. We will find out if that’s enough, I suspect it will be but not for a first ballot. More likely on the third try or so.
by William Bryan on Feb 7, 2012 8:22 PM PST up reply actions
See this makes me think you've missed the entire context of our entire argument.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
I think Shaun has a clear narrative.
The thing that he is best known for is scoring a crazy amount of touchdowns. That seems like a pretty good thing to be known for considering the objective of every possession is to get in the end zone,
by Alex Kelly on Feb 7, 2012 8:19 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
The question wasn't SHOULD he make the HOF,
It was WILL he make the HOF? The majority of us would like to see him elected, however, he realistically probably wont make it. If it were up to us we’d probably include Hasselbeck and Tatupu as well, and we all know those two didn’t have HOF worthy careers.
by Brandonc24 on Feb 6, 2012 10:09 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Yes, because he was a Seahawk.
Also, in Madden 2006, I would drive people crazy by running every play and mashing the juke button with him. I was unstoppable and my friends wouldn’t play me anymore.
Such a terrible video game cover too...
Eternally looking forward to someone making a Seahawks song based off of Lil' Jon's "Shots" song named "Hawks!"
The fact that this is an actual debate just makes the Steve Hutchinson poison pill even more bitter for me
I just can’t help but imagine if Hutch had stayed a Seahawk, there would be no question of #37’s worthiness. I think Alexander could have put together at least another 1,000 yard season or two and made a very solid (not a shoo-in, but solid) bid for the HOF.
Long suffering, committed Seahawks/Packers fan
Maybe, but I doubt it.Shaun was a workhorse.
Shaun was an absolute workhorse who was getting 20-25 touches per game at his peak. That amount of carries plus age would most likely have led to him breaking down even with Hutch.
Also, Hutch has been in decline
Which (shock horror) would’ve meant that had we matched that offer we would’ve dealt with Hutch’s poor play and injuries through the tail end of the seven years.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
by SSreporters on Feb 6, 2012 7:11 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
It would have been worth it
and easier to rebuild the line had he been here. Appreciate the sentiment though ;)
The contract has wrecked the Vikings salary cap though.
"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff
by EequalsMc2 on Feb 6, 2012 8:18 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I don't think Alexander ran for enough yards to make the Hall of Fame
He didn’t even rush for 10,000 yards, all of the running backs that made the hall that started their career after 1980 all rushed for at least 12,000 yards. Marcus Allen, Eric Dickerson, Tony Dorsett, Marshall Faulk, Curtis Martin, Barry Sanders, Emmitt Smith, Thurman Thomas.
Agree totally
He needed two more 1,000-yard seasons to be a lock for the HOF. Instead, he’s going to be a finalist, but fall short every time. It’s too bad, because he certainly had HOF talent. But then, so did Terrell Davis.
How the hell did we get so many Kellys on this site?
Danny Kelly, Alex Kelly, Kelly20210.
What’s next, Kelly Jennings on Field Gulls? Now that would be awkward.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
by SSreporters on Feb 6, 2012 8:01 PM PST reply actions 5 recs
Someone should make that, just so the real Kelly Jennings can't.
I know. I’m a bastard.
by Neonjerseysplease on Feb 6, 2012 8:30 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I'll get suspicious when I see "Blindcoverage21".
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
by SSreporters on Feb 6, 2012 8:36 PM PST up reply actions 6 recs
Outside Seattle fans, who references SA when talking about great RB's in the last decade.
The same ppl who vote for HoF = noone.
Make any argument you like, the voting media will by and large move past “Grimmace the Turf Tackler.” If anything, they will discount his great years, for his horrible effort and lack of toughness in his final two years. Players simply did not like the guy, and that carried over into the media.
See Alex's comment above; he was voted second team all decade.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
He may get some nods, but not for HoF.
Course, I’m talking out my butt, I can’t see the future and don’t actually know what all these voting pundits think…
Forgot to add, they will attribute what success he did have
To the HoF LT and R guard that also blocks for AP and is a dirty name here.
SA will pay his dues by staying out of the HoF, after he took far to much credit in 05 for his own success. He had his book and his 15 minutes of fame. At least, thats how I see it.
Shaun might make it in simply because there's not much competition.
Outside of Jerome Bettis, LT, Edgerrin James and Jamal Lewis, there aren’t many comparable players within his era, so to say.
"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff
I think he deserves to go to the Hall.
He is not a first ballot guy and might not make it in until the Veteran’s Committee selects him.
I look at Gayle Sayres when thinking of Alexander’s chances. Sayres played in a run-first era and his numbers were solid, but not spectacular. Alexander played in a pass-heavy era and his numbers, for a short period, were pretty spectacular. 1880 yards and 100 career TDs is an excellent number in any era. How many other RBs can also make that claim and how many of that group are in the hall of fame?
I am not discounting the fact his career was relatively short and his “soft” running style, but I don’t think he has much comparison as far as running backs of his era.
Gale Sayers*
I do agree Shaun had excellent numbers for his 5 years of peak play. Averaging 17 TDs will get you considered. I don’t see him making it in though, sadly enough. I do believe longevity matters these days, especially compared to LT, Edge, Fred Taylor, Jamal Lewis and Corey Dillon. ( Just naming a few running backs in the same area).
by Neonjerseysplease on Feb 6, 2012 8:33 PM PST up reply actions
Gale Sayers!
I can’t believe you compare the two. Sayers was unholy, and he aces the same eye test that will sink Alexander’s hopes.
"The time has come," the Walrus said, "to talk of many things."
The verdict has been reached in the case Stats v. Film.
70% of space is covered by dark matter, the rest by ET.
This isn't an agrument about Shaun "deserving" enshrinement: Getting into the HOF is all about politics and opportunity. That's it.
Remember, the voters have to elect 5 players EVERY YEAR. It may seem, from the abstract, that there’ll be plenty of players ahead of Shaun, but let’s not forget that Chris freakin’ Doleman just got elected this year; good player, recorded a bunch of sacks, no flaws in his game that I can recall….but he was hardly dominant.
Also, it’s not like Shaun has only one shot in getting in, he can wait for (what I believe is) 15 years, and it might just be a roll of the dice which year will be thin enough to get him in. That’s 75 slots Shaun has a shot at; can you honestly name 75 (eligible) players that are CLEARLY better than Shaun Alexander?
If Shaun gets in, it’ll be less about his career length and playing style, and more about who is advocating for him in the voters room, and who his competition is. “Deserves” has nothing to do with it.
by J.L. White on Feb 6, 2012 8:42 PM PST reply actions 4 recs
Good point
I knew the Tez would get in this year because he didn’t have much competition. Yes, if Doleman can get in, Shaun certainly has a chance. I’m sure there are a number of less-deserving players in Canton. It’s too bad Shaun didn’t play for two more years as a starter. That’s all it would have taken for him to become a lock for the HOF.
Curious.
If Alexander decided to hang it up after 2006, would he be voted into the HoF?
No, I still don't think his career would've been long enough
Heresy grows from idleness.
Why get Matt Flynn?
"Also, for what it’s worth, if we get Flynn, New England and Detroit are on the schedule!" - SSreporters
by Corax --Nevermore-- on Feb 6, 2012 8:56 PM PST up reply actions
I guess it would depend on how or why he would hang it up
"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff
I don't think it's fair what the general feeling is towards Alexander
In my eyes, he was an elite back for five years. We should be thankful for that, to the point where we can forgive the guy for losing a step after he fucking broke his foot.
by GasolineSnuggie on Feb 6, 2012 8:50 PM PST reply actions 4 recs
I didn't say anything to warrant this reply.
by GasolineSnuggie on Feb 7, 2012 5:24 AM PST up reply actions
Actually
I don’t think it’s fair what the general feeling is towards Alexander
Don’t confuse the negativity in the poll or in the comments with an overall view of Shaun- much of it specific to the Hall of Fame, where the fact that he broke his foot is very relevant.
I did not confuse the negativity in the poll or in the comments with an overall view of Shaun.
I’m talking about the general opinion that most people seem to have of the guy. I don’t think it’s fair to call him “soft” or to say he was only elite because of his line – it was a symbiotic relationship. I’ve seen a lot of people say, and I’m not talking specifically about the comments on this post.
As per the Hall of Fame, I don’t think he will get in. I think he’s really close to being qualified, but I don’t think his 5 years of amazing productivity is enough. That said, it wouldn’t surprise me if he got in.
by GasolineSnuggie on Feb 7, 2012 6:33 PM PST up reply actions
Speaking of awards and HOF (semi-OT)
Has there been a Field Gulls Community Awards/Ceremony? Because there are some posters who definitely deserve to be recognized this year.
Or if this is completely not okay, then I’ll be in my corner.
"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff
I win award for best Enemy Reaction
Speaking of which, it’s not an enemy reaction, but the Patriots reactions are coming up in the fanposts soon. So if you hate New England, this is the post for you.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
I think this would fall under "Best FanPosts in a Series"
"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff
He absolutely deserves to be in
This is a different age of running backs, I believe history will look well upon his accomplishments as an elite competitor for many years, but I’m no psychic. I just believe he deserves his due.
Agree with the seintment that Kenny Easley is a much better candidate
But anyone who has been league MVP and set a TD scoring record for a season, even if it was quickly broken, has to be up for consideration.
Does Edge make the HoF?
i ask because the common arguments against Alexander are that he played behind a future HoF LT and (probably) HoF LG.
But Edge ran in a Peyton Manning run offense and then a Kurt Warner run offense, and his production was similar to Alexander’s, albeit for a slightly prolonged period of time – but never came close in the TD stakes – Alexander had 5 consecutive seasons with 14+ rushing TDs. Edge never had more than 13 in a single season in his career.
There are only so many TDs to go around
on a Manning or Warner offense. And the running back ain’t first in line.
70% of space is covered by dark matter, the rest by ET.
I love SA
But if Cris Carter still hasn’t made it to the HoF. Then I doubt SA will ever make it.
He isn't a first ballot Hall of Famer
But definitely within the first three chances he should be in. Alexander along with LT were undeniably the best backs of the decade. Production wise. Yes, Alexander only had 5 great years, but they were GREAT years. A stretch of play that really is unmatched averaging 15 TD’s. And the great Oline argument is just silly. Yes Walter was the best of all time and Hutchinson was an all pro but Tobeck, Gray, and the turnstyle at RT were nothing to write home about. The bottom line is that Alexander has the numbers and overall credentials to make it in the HOF. If he had 1000+ yard seasons in 06 and 07 he would be a first ballot lock. Since he had just a really good 06 and dropped off in 07 he should have to wait but only for a year or two.

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