Seahawks Roster Analysis: Tight Ends
Thomas' "Zach Miller, John Carlson and the Value of the Chip-and-Release" piece from last week was a great precursor to this article because it did an excellent job in pointing out the value in having a player like Carlson that, while on the field with Miller, can easily disguise a run/pass play. As Beekers put it, 'these type of tight ends make it near impossible to read run or pass based on alignment, which is often too easy on the current incarnation of the Seahawks offense.'
I couldn't have agreed with the article more and Beekers' argument for re-signing or possibly franchise tagging Carlson is sound, in my mind. The gap between Carlson's skillset and that of Anthony McCoy or Cameron Morrah is a lot wider than some probably assume and with the frequency Seattle likes to run with two tight end sets, spending a little on Carlson makes sense. Having Miller and Carlson on the field together presents interesting matchup issues for opposing defenses, who have to account for both Miller and Carlson as legitimate receiving options down the field and not just someone to keep an eye on. It's why Pete Carroll has raved about using the two together, why he's talked about the plan to do so prior to Carlson's labrum issue, and why he's still talking about re-signing him.
I think we all fall victim to the 'value' idea with this front office in hopes that Cameron Morrah and/or Anthony McCoy can just as easily assume the role that Carlson would be able to fill, but unfortunately both were fairly invisible and ineffective this season, dropping passes and missing blocking assignments and my confidence in their potential has waned quite a bit. My sense is that we've sort of forgotten the talent that Carlson does possess and was showcased in his first two seasons but hasn't been apparent in the last couple years. As Carlson's value is primarily as a receiving tight end, you have to look no further than what happened with Zach Miller this year as an indication of what happens when your offensive line needs help.
Now, operating under the assumption that the line, with an offseason of work together under the tutelage of Tom Cable, may be more ready to protect the quarterback without the dedicated services of a sixth person, one could guess that the tight end group will become more involved in the passing game. I highly doubt the Seahawks spent so much money on a guy like Zach Miller in the hopes he'd be a dedicated blocking tight end. I also think Carroll was being sincere when he addressed the questions of redundancy once Miller was signed, completely refuting the "trade Carlson" rumors.
"Anybody who thinks anything otherwise doesn't get it," Carroll said. "I think those guys will play together in tandem. They'll be on opposite sides. We'll be moving them around for matchups and all kinds of stuff. I think it's a great asset for us now. We've always liked to play with two tight ends in a number of different packages, and this just gives us tremendous flexibility at a really high level, so I'm really hoping this is going to be difficult for our opponents because of the matchups we'll be able to create."
Tremendous flexibility at a really high level. Those words stick out to me. You can't say that type of thing, yet anyway, about Morrah/McCoy. It's easy to forget Carlson had 106 catches for 1,201 yards and 12 touchdowns in his first two seasons when he was actually being used as a chip and release TE and not an in-line blocker or fullback. That talent hasn't disappeared.
I don't think Carroll was being dishonest when he said this after this last season:
"Our image of having Zach and John going at it - you saw how many extra tight ends we used. We thought it could really enhance John's game having Zach here, so we're hoping we can get that done and get him back with us."
The idea of Zach enhancing John's game speaks to the way they use the two, and Thomas' rough comparison to Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez and the way the Patriots use TEs is apt. Alone, Gronk or Hernandez are good, but together they're nearly unstoppable. Using Hernandez in Gronk's role would be laughable, and Gronk wouldn't be nearly as dangerous in Hernandez's place, I would think. Well, maybe he would, but Gronk is a freak.
With Miller in the mix, Carlson no longer needs to be used in the unnatural position they had him in 2010. People say "Carlson sucks at blocking" but I think that's an exaggeration. Yes, he kind of does suck as a fullback or as a 6th linemen, but that doesn't mean he can't still trap block and chip just fine. It wasn't a huge issue his first two seasons. Regardless, he's a significant upgrade as a receiver over the other options available and at 6'5 is a dangerous red-zone threat, especially with Sidney Rice on the field.
It's unclear who really backs up Zach Miller in the first place if Carlson isn't re-signed or retained - by the end of the season, Anthony McCoy was yielding snaps to Cameron Morrah but neither really stood out or impressed me much. McCoy did a fine job in his blocking assignments and I think he's solid in that area, but famously developed rocks for hands. Morrah, on the other hand, was often used in '22' formations and motioned out to the wing as a wide receiver so his blocking skills weren't really tested much. He had six catches in nine games.
We could talk about potential all day long about these two - and I'm as guilty as anyone in daydreaming of two Vernon Davises backing up Zach Miller but the fact is neither of them have shown us much to get that excited about. There is talk about John Nalbone - particularly from Pete Carroll in his season-ending presser when he mentioned the practice squad TE by name, but again, nothing to go on but hope.
So, to me, tight end is an important position to watch this offseason and I'm hoping the Seahawks can get a deal done with Carlson. Barring that - we go back to the potential of Anthony McCoy and Cameron Morrah. Both have great athleticism and interesting skillsets for sure and this article isn't mean to bash either of them, but if we're being realistic, expecting a ton from either is tough for me. Can McCoy get past his dropsies? Can Morrah be used in that John Carlson role as more of a receiver than in-line blocker? Does he have the hands? These questions I just don't have an answer for.
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Awesome read
I hope they do sign Carlson back. Seeing him and Miller together would leave a defense on its heels and would improve the playaction so much.
As for Morrah and McCoy, not sure about Morrah aside that he can actually catch compared to McCoy (who i believe to be Olden Polynice’s long lost cousin). Out of the 2, i would think Morrah has better upside, but thats yet to be seen since we didnt see him do alot
Enter the 37th chamber: BEASTMODE
I hope your talking about the left one.
It does look freakishly out of place, I didnt notice it until now.
Enter the 37th chamber: BEASTMODE
by RunMarshawnRun on Feb 9, 2012 3:15 PM PST up reply actions
Hmm, I don't see it.
The shoulder pads are so bulky, this just looks normal for a guy wearing shoulder pads.
"The time has come," the Walrus said, "to talk of many things."
Oh shoot I thought that was Tetsuo!
As for the Seahawks, they shall have stars at elbow and foot...Though they sink through the sea they shall rise again...Death shall have no dominion.
Awesome article!
I really do hope we are able to re-sign Carlson, even if that means franchising. Not only would he and Miller be a solid combo but in the case of drafting a rookie/Flynn they would be great safety valves for a young QB. After Finley, Fred Davis and Carlson there’s quite a drop in talent in the free agent pool so it’ll be interesting to watch how much attention he receives from other teams.
I often don't think a lot about the ramifications of anything I do - Will Ferrell
With all the FA's we have isn't it about time we start seeing some new contracts ?
Carroll said something about everybody going home for a break and getting back to do the work. I don’t remember the timeline.
I don't think contact announcements can be had yet..
Otherwise we would gabber heard a lot more stars snagged up and contact values, etc.
Ka-Kaaa!
by JerryNice on Feb 9, 2012 5:12 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Unfortunately, it make take six games or so for the line to improve enough to free the TE's.
The Moffitt and Carpenter recovery periods are going to hurt their development and the development of the Offense as a whole.
Hence why the ambiguity of a twin TE set
is important for the Hawks this year. I think they’ll sign Carlson for cheap.
"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff
Agreed On Carlson
Plus, if the team sign Paul McQ and Breno Giacomini, the fall off isn’t really that much while Moffitt and Carp heal fully. With a functional line, the two TE sets are going to be dangerous. I hope he is cheap also.
Live work and breathe like an optimist.
It'd be nice if Moffit and Carpenter don't heal at the same time.
Reintroducing them into the line one at a time sounds much more appealing than both at once.
Bad decision to franchise John, in my opinion
He isn’t good enough to warrent that type of salary. He won’t earn much on the open market and would be over paid for his skillset w/ a tag. Either he wants to be here and signs right away on the cheap, or he explores FA and sees what he can get. I like him and he’s been a good team player with slightly above average production – but – he can be replaced in the draft.
I’d rather draft a replacement in the 2nd – 4th round if he can’t be resigned for a lower ranged contract. I’d rather the FO use the additional salary he’d get from a tag, on FA DE/DT or LB.
I don't think anyone is thinking "franchise".
I agree with everything you said, but I wonder how you got the idea of franchising. Had Carlson continued to progress after his initial season, and had he not been bit by the injury bug, perhaps a franchise tag would be warranted.
by brugg on Feb 9, 2012 8:26 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Second paragraph
“I couldn’t have agreed with the article more and Beekers’ argument for re-signing or possibly franchise tagging Carlson is sound, in my mind. "
The point to franchising him
Is that the TE as a position is an undervalued asset and because of that the franchise salary for him would only be in about the ~$5 million range. That wouldn’t eat enough cap to affect other signings and in a vacuum seems fair for Carlson. If that’s what it takes to keep him here and thats what PC/JS want then I’m all for it.
by CMoney87 on Feb 10, 2012 12:25 AM PST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
With ample cap, no it wouldn't.
I’d still rather the money go to another few key positions. I don’t think JC should be valued that highly.
Do agree, if the front office wants him that badly, who am I to say they are wrong. I just don’t see the value, right now.
Sign the man
Carlson’s performance fell off recently and then he was out all of last season. That’s not what a player wants in his contract year. I predict that Seattle will sign him at a moderate bargain, but not “cheap”.
For those people who think Carlson can’t block, they’re going off of what they read from his rookie year, not from what he did in 2010. Carlson is especially successful at slashing back across zone plays. He’s also able to take defenders to the outside when the zone comes his way. So, Carlson comes into 2012 with some blocking skills and we have yet to see him coached by Tom Cable and mentored by Zach Miller. And, yes, Miller will want to teach the young man to block even better than he can, as that will give Miller more opportunities down field.
JS and PC spent some big bucks on Miller after experiencing defeat in the the playoffs in Chicago. They know firsthand how important TEs can be. And they signed Miller knowing that they had Carlson in their pocket for 2011. Unfortunately, the injury bug didn’t let them execute their vision. JS and PC wanted these guys on the field together at the same time. I don’t think that’s changed one bit.
Only thing that changes from the intent PC/JS had
Is that when we do get the 2 TE set rocking, they will say we copied the Patriots…
And that is a bad thing because...?
"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff
by EequalsMc2 on Feb 9, 2012 9:57 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I didn't imply it was a bad thing.
I intended to be a bit sarcastic there, given the media’s bias toward teams other than Seattle and the idea that every team copies another teams success. 2 TE sets have been around a while. For some reason the Patriots did very well with them and the players they had, they brough a good bit of attention to it. PC/JS hardly copied Bill.
No, Carlson has been a pretty bad blocker after his rookie year too.
He wasn’t terrible that first year, for a rookie. Last year (2010) they used him as a FB and extra OT, and it was pretty apparent that wasn’t what he was supposed to be doing. Any blocking improvement was purely because he didn’t have any other assignments. There’s going to be a drop-off in blocking talent from McCoy/Morrah to Carlson. Will the added passing threat offset that loss? Only if the QB can take advantage of it and the O-line improves enough to bridge that blocking gap.
Im glad we are on the same page
For a good portion of the year i have been clammoring for a top tier second TE. Oline issues or not, having thoe TEs in routes keeps the defense honest.
Here is my issue with the idea though…Is Tarvaris going to improve his read progression enough to incorporate them in the game plan?
I actually think it will be more along the lines of Carolina’s offense than the Pats. TEs running seams, outs and drags. Shockey/Olsen is pretty similar to Carlson/Miller or Finley/Miller
Super-Freak tight ends are the future
Consider that PCJS want the team bigger, stronger & faster. A big athletic tight end is that excellent mix of lineman and receiver. The matchup problems are great, but most of all I love the ambiguity. Catch the right personell group on defense, a nickel package for instance, and drop into a hurry-up and rattle off a few power runs. They bring in se wide bodies to stop you, spread em out and throw, all with the same personell. Rice, Baldwin, miller, Carlsen and beastmode for the win
by Crominator56 on Feb 10, 2012 12:35 AM PST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
I couldn't agree more
I’m so excited for next year.
I agree to signing Carlson
We need to sign Carlson to a decent salary with performance bonuses. Maybe 2 million a year with additional bonuses.
There are only a few players worth a franchise tag on the Hawks. Marshawn Lynch, Earl Thomas and Kam Chancellor. Possibly Sherman. I don’t see it for anyone else out there, except Baldwin when his contract is up.
Carlsen is not a super freak though.
"The time has come," the Walrus said, "to talk of many things."
You've never seen him dance.
Smashmouth is the new sexy!
But he is a 95% solution
Great hands, great ability to get open, decent blocker. Miller and Carlson might not be quite as super-freak as Hernandez and Gronk, but I think the delta is in large part due to a more experienced line and QB. Imagine if we had a QB willig to throw to tight ends. I think both are guys are probably at least in the top 10 in the league, which means keeping Carlson gives us a lethal combo.
Thought on the JS/green bay method of “next man up” roster churn: when you have veterans playing at a high level, I think you need to keep them so that your draft can go towards areas of actual weakness. It sucks to tread water in an area of strength when you could have reinforced an area of weakness. TE is an area of strength if we keep Carlson, and an area of “pretty good, but one injury away from weakness” if we let him go. Sign the man.
by Crominator56 on Feb 11, 2012 11:37 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Great theory.
The question is whether Carlson buys in. The organization says wonderful things about playing to his strengths, optimizing his value and what-not. But I suspect that what he hears is “don’t leave, baby, I promise I’ll treat you better this year, you have to give me one more chance!”
by Suburban Shocker on Feb 10, 2012 11:52 AM PST reply actions
We have treated Carlson well
And have paid him through his injury. But if he wants to walk – that’s why there is a free agency.

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